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Old 12-04-15, 12:12 PM
  #151  
gsteinb
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Yeah, dunno. Two years ago they tested two events in NJ for a total of 12 riders, and one guy missed a test because he flatted (crit), left the course, jumped in his car and went home.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:22 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Which circles back to something I think fudgy posted, and that I feel strongly, is the unwholesome sense of accusation of another without any basis other than they beat me. It's kinda cancerous, and one of the main things that's led me to my '**** it' attitude.
i think that may have been me-- at least i've posted in the past that leveling accusations about doping is something REALLY severe, as there is absolutely no defense against it. it's impossible to prove one is NOT doing something. most of those accusations come from "i train super hard and that guy always beats me -- he MUST be on something." sure, it's possible he is, but winning doesn't prove guilt.


Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
I've done plenty of MTB races where **** goes wrong. Break a spoke, blow a fork up, eat **** down a ravine. DNF without crossing the finish line. When I broke my hand in October, I had to drive myself to the hospital. The only reason the officials knew I was a DNF was because the Start/Finish area was en route back to my car. I've also done plenty of races where parking wasn't any where near the S/F, and if you had a mishap, it would be ridiculous for you to try to get to both the S/F en route to the parking lot.
you're right. i was thinking more in the road world where there are officials around (often) and someone is more likely to see a rider.

still...you have to get back to your car to get home, and most races have a start that is somewhere near the finish.

i take your point, though. it's not a perfect system. people complain about lack of enforcement, and they'll complain about enforcement, too. (not saying your issue is not valid, but what seems to happen is that USAC is in a damned-if-you-do/don't situation.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:24 PM
  #153  
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If I ever have to start using insulin again (lets hope I don't..haven't needed any for the last year), I will probably end up getting a TUE for that off chance they come looking for guys who finished in the back of the pack in cat 4 races.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:26 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
i know the 2nd place rider personally. i would never make any statements about him being 100% clean, but he is a nasty (good) crit racer. he might say we're friends (he contacts me to ride when in the area)--but the guy can race his bike. he traveled to cali and won nevada city (masters), still places in the top 10 in NCC events, etc. he does go around trying to sell his supplement, though.... (seriously)
Your friend had a better view than I did, obviously. What I sort-of-saw/was told was that Kayle rode otf solo and then there was more pack sprint/gap on the last straight before the turn towards the line. Again, whatever, we lost to a guy coming off suspension which was my real point.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:29 PM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
I mean, according to some sources, doping can actually permanently alter your physiology. So, he could have doped to the gills during those two years "off", and trained his ass off, and then cleaned up once his suspension ended. And still retained much of the benefits of training at a much higher level for those two years.
that's basically according to all sources. once muscle achieves a level of strength and aerobic capacity it is always easier to get back to that level, per like literally everything I've read on the topic. It's part of the argument for lifetime bans. People flatting out and missing a piss test or taking JAK3D or something stupid and failing a solitary test is the argument against lifetime bans. I don't know which is right, but I was definitely annoyed to lose to a guy who I know benefited from cheating.
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Old 12-04-15, 12:29 PM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Yeah, dunno. Two years ago they tested two events in NJ for a total of 12 riders, and one guy missed a test because he flatted (crit), left the course, jumped in his car and went home.
so...there really hasn't been a culture of testing other than for national championship events.

perhaps if we get to that point, people realize they need to cruise past the finish line and check the dry erase board for their #. assuming that guy is innocent, i feel bad for him, but maybe that scenario will be eliminated or at least much less infrequent if/when a new culture is ingrained. for a crit, it's probably an extra 1/4 mile of riding/walking.

not condemning that guy and not saying that it is fun to have to do this, but the sport has a problem.

even though i generally share @gsteinb's attitude of it not being worth it to do all this testing stuff, i figure if it IS the reality of the sport and there IS going to be testing, i'd like to see it done right -- just like we accept all the other rules of the sport to promote fair competition.

(i've always been taught that it is good race etiquette to ALWAYS check in with an official/promoter/whoever when you DNF. many who run races like to account for all racers as a safety issue, so even in @Duke of Kent's scenario (MTB race), it's still the right thing to do to tell someone what is up so they don't waste resources in a course sweep. at that time, someone should know if a rider has been selected for testing.)
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Old 12-04-15, 12:31 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
Yes, but was he "clean" during his suspension?

I mean, according to some sources, doping can actually permanently alter your physiology. So, he could have doped to the gills during those two years "off", and trained his ass off, and then cleaned up once his suspension ended. And still retained much of the benefits of training at a much higher level for those two years.
This can only be prevented by the random out of competition testing and/or the biological passport program that the pros go through. These programs will never make it to the amateur ranks (nor should they).
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Old 12-04-15, 12:37 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
so...there really hasn't been a culture of testing other than for national championship events.
I do think they should test 1->5 at Nats so everyone who participates in that event knows they did not miss a medal due to someone (currently) using anything.
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Old 12-04-15, 01:39 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
I've done plenty of MTB races where **** goes wrong. Break a spoke, blow a fork up, eat **** down a ravine. DNF without crossing the finish line. When I broke my hand in October, I had to drive myself to the hospital. The only reason the officials knew I was a DNF was because the Start/Finish area was en route back to my car. I've also done plenty of races where parking wasn't any where near the S/F, and if you had a mishap, it would be ridiculous for you to try to get to both the S/F en route to the parking lot.
OK, but it is still your obligation as a racer to report your DNF to an official while the race is in progress.
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Old 12-04-15, 01:48 PM
  #160  
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I took a banned in competition drug during a race last year and DNF'd. I showed my Epi-Pen to the officials as I rode back to the car but no one seemed very excited about it.
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Old 12-04-15, 01:55 PM
  #161  
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Officials don't work for usada
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Old 12-04-15, 01:58 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
...I mean, according to some sources, doping can actually permanently alter your physiology...
This is a really relevant point IMHO. On another note, cannabis is banned during competition, but it can stay in the body for a while and well, I think that is absurd.

So take steroids for years, train like crazy, stop steroids and race = win clean. Smoke a bong days before a race, race "doped," and get banned. what?

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Old 12-04-15, 03:07 PM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
We all lost the 35-40 Nats crit to Leogrande who'd come off a 2-year ban like 6 months earlier. He rode away from the field, seated, on the last lap. We were all super happy.
F that guy and anyone team that takes that dbag in.

They need to do random out of comp and 5 deep in comp for masters because half the field would stop racing.
They can't just do nats. Regional, state champs, any overall uscf title and series should have testing.
It's THAT bad out there.
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Old 12-04-15, 03:24 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead
F that guy and anyone team that takes that dbag in.

They need to do random out of comp and 5 deep in comp for masters because half the field would stop racing.
They can't just do nats. Regional, state champs, any overall uscf title and series should have testing.
It's THAT bad out there.
there was a time when i thought a good penalty for doping (at the pro level) would be to have the TEAM banned. at the amateur level it is tougher. yeah, super harsh....but that would REALLY get the peer/shaming/outing thing going.

it is crazy to me that a team would take someone back who has been convicted, but again there are some of those gray cases. i have no idea about the case of the particular guy fudgy mentioned.

riding without a team -- when you are being shunned by teams, not out of choice -- could be effective.

on the other hand, our society at least gives lip service to the rehabilitation of criminals, and this is cheating at stamp collecting on wheels.

(i joke about that all the time, but i take the stamp collecting as serious as anyone out there, so i'm kind of making fun of myself. )
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Old 12-04-15, 03:26 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Officials don't work for usada
true, but in this "new world" officials could either remind the rider to check the board or, perhaps, radio ahead to find out what numbers came up. it's better than the mysterious disappearance.

again, not faulting the guy int he example you cited, but we're talking about a new scenario where we are essentially all on notice that there is a slightly different protocol for DNFs that may have existed in the past.

when i broke my femur, you can be damn sure i wasn't going to piss in a cup had my name came up -- and yet before i crawled to my car (that happened), i made sure the officials knew i was out.
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Old 12-04-15, 03:44 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
there was a time when i thought a good penalty for doping (at the pro level) would be to have the TEAM banned. at the amateur level it is tougher. yeah, super harsh....but that would REALLY get the peer/shaming/outing thing going.

it is crazy to me that a team would take someone back who has been convicted, but again there are some of those gray cases. i have no idea about the case of the particular guy fudgy mentioned.

riding without a team -- when you are being shunned by teams, not out of choice -- could be effective.
No you just ban the rider for 10 years, lifetime the next. Age groupers only motivation is racing and bragging. Take away the races, shame their sh-t and you take everything away from them.
They will quit racing on their own accord or just be one of the saturday group ride "winners" where the only goal is being a Strav*******. They can dope up until their blood is like maple syrup and "win" those Strava koms.

Out all those age groupers because a lot of them are doping. USCF is a joke right now anyway. Slow, backwards and not helping promotors or the sport.
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Old 12-04-15, 04:15 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead
F that guy and anyone team that takes that dbag in.

They need to do random out of comp and 5 deep in comp for masters because half the field would stop racing.
They can't just do nats. Regional, state champs, any overall uscf title and series should have testing.
It's THAT bad out there.
USAC would then be alienating one of their biggest user groups and biggest revenue sources. Not sure they want to go that far
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Old 12-04-15, 04:26 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
there was a time when i thought a good penalty for doping (at the pro level) would be to have the TEAM banned. at the amateur level it is tougher. yeah, super harsh....but that would REALLY get the peer/shaming/outing thing going.

it is crazy to me that a team would take someone back who has been convicted, but again there are some of those gray cases. i have no idea about the case of the particular guy fudgy mentioned.

riding without a team -- when you are being shunned by teams, not out of choice -- could be effective.

on the other hand, our society at least gives lip service to the rehabilitation of criminals, and this is cheating at stamp collecting on wheels.

(i joke about that all the time, but i take the stamp collecting as serious as anyone out there, so i'm kind of making fun of myself. )



Enjoy a minute of reading.

Doping[edit]

Leogrande admitted doping began as early as 2006 via his eventual confession of purchasing EPO from Joseph M. Papp. Leogrande won the USA Cycling amateur criterium championship that year. In 2007, he joined Rock Racing and began doping more regularly, and subsequently won the USA Cycling professional criterium championship. In July 2007, Leogrande was given a surprise drug test and he confided in Rock Racing souigneur Suzanne Sonye his uneasiness about testing positive due to his doping program. Leogrande's test came back negative, but Sonye reported his confession to USADA. Her testimony, and evidence provided by Papp (photographs of Leogrande with EPO and a handwritten note) led to Leogrande's demise. Leogrande entered a state of desperation, attempting to sue Sonye, Papp and Matthew Dicanio for defamation. The case against Sonye was dismissed and Leogrande was left financially crippled by the resulting verdict that he pay Sonye's attorney fees. During this time he hastily left an unused box of EPO in the refrigerator of an apartment he was moving out of. His landlady turned the sample over to the FDA, further cementing Leogrande's legacy. Travis Tygart, CEO of USADA, claims that without Leogrande's admission to Sonye, the USADA case against Lance Armstrong may have never happened.[SUP][5][/SUP]
In January 2008 Leogrande made headlines when he was revealed to be the anonymous rider filing a lawsuit against USADA, seeking to prevent the testing of his B-sample from a urinalysis taken at Superweek the previous year, which was thought to contain evidence of EPO.,[SUP][6][/SUP][SUP][7][/SUP] The A-sample had tested negative for performance-enhancing drugs but USADA claimed the right to test the B-sample regardless, already suspecting that Leogrande had doped. USADA refrained from testing the backup sample and the suit was dismissed - but the anti-doping agency still charged the rider with a doping violation.,[SUP][8][/SUP][SUP][9][/SUP]
Later in the year, Leogrande filed another lawsuit, this time a defamation claim against former Rock Racing soigneur Suzanne Sonye. Leogrande also sued former professional cyclist Matt DeCanio for defamation.[SUP][10][/SUP] However, the USADA case against him went forward, and it was alleged that he had confessed his use of performance-enhancing drugs to Sonye when competing at Superweek on July 26, 2007. Though Leogrande denied the charges, he was suspended for two years after a three-member arbitration panel concluded he had in fact used EPO. Leogrande's "non-analytical" positive doping control was of note because it was based not matching A and B urine samples that showed traces of drug metabolites, but rather, sworn testimony from Sonye and Rock Racing team director Frankie Andreu and ancillary evidence such as cellphone records detailing calls between Leogrande and Papp plus their hand-written correspondence.[SUP][11][/SUP]
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Old 12-04-15, 04:55 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
true, but in this "new world" officials could either remind the rider to check the board or, perhaps, radio ahead to find out what numbers came up. it's better than the mysterious disappearance.

again, not faulting the guy int he example you cited, but we're talking about a new scenario where we are essentially all on notice that there is a slightly different protocol for DNFs that may have existed in the past.

when i broke my femur, you can be damn sure i wasn't going to piss in a cup had my name came up -- and yet before i crawled to my car (that happened), i made sure the officials knew i was out.


You may have missed I was replying to the post above mine. Yes officials could remind riders. Knowing what is or isn't illegal and policing that isn't on their job description.
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Old 12-04-15, 04:55 PM
  #170  
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I read that 20 of the 22 cheats (in 2012) were amateurs. These are just a few that stand out.

Kayle LeoGrande Cycling 2 year suspension - Loss of Results EPO
socal ******
SUZANNE SONYE IS A CLEAN Socal racer that LeoGrande sued for defamation. What a tool.
(as noted in Ygduf's post above)

Nick Brandt-Sorenson Cycling 2 Year Suspension - Loss of Results Efaproxiral
socal ****** -He makes cycle clothing and I hate seeing his name in the peloton

Richard Meeker Cycling 2-Year Suspension- Loss of Results 19-norandrosterone and 19-noretiocholanolone
socal masters ****** probably still a doping doche

David LeDuc Cycling 2-Year Suspension - Loss of Results Anabolic Androgenic Steroid, rhEPO, Amphetamine
This **** was 62 yrs old

David Anthony Cycling 2 Year Suspension - Loss of Results EPO
this age grouper was some 45 yr old cat 3 or some crap


list goes on and the only reason it's not bigger is that they don't test enough.

Last edited by gsteinb; 12-05-15 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 12-04-15, 05:22 PM
  #171  
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Todd Hickman Accepts Doping Sanction | USADA
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Old 12-04-15, 06:48 PM
  #172  
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Even if they just take the $$ from renewals and test the top 5 at State/District events and at Nats, it's a start. (i.e. **** that dude above ^^ )
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Old 12-04-15, 06:51 PM
  #173  
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I could get on board with that. Then we could talk smack and point fingers at anyone who didn't show up to those events.
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Old 12-04-15, 06:56 PM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
You may have missed I was replying to the post above mine. Yes officials could remind riders. Knowing what is or isn't illegal and policing that isn't on their job description.
i did miss that you were responding to the epi-pen thing. i'm reading in flat view so sometimes when a post is not quoted it is hard to tell where a reply is directed.
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Old 12-04-15, 06:57 PM
  #175  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin
the podium picture on the steps, to me, just illustrates how silly it all is. doping....for that? ugh.

i kind of get doping to win the olympics or the TdF....there is big money and careers at stake. a masters state championship? weird.
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