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Old 12-05-15, 08:58 PM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Yeah I got my first modern computer to participate in one for a collective of meditators doing a training. Dial up indeed. Will you ever forget that sound?
I used to walk home from Jr. High to play FieryMUD in like 94. Had to telnet in!
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Old 12-05-15, 09:33 PM
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For those folks who want to characterize this Cat 1 as "whining about $25" you might want to check your assumptions at the door, and defer a bit to someone who's had a lot more experience with the dopers/doping/testing protocol. I could give a flying about $25. I could give a flying about spending $150,000 on something worthless when you could get something of value. I'd frankly rather wipe my ass with a $20 and a five, or a check written on soft paper.

You say we must do something, acknowledge that what you want to do doesn't work, but still want to do it. Read that several times.

You say give the new guy a chance. Well, the old guy who was completely dirty is still pulling down $150k as is the new guy who was hired to paper over the old guy with a show program and who, incidentally, was hired by the same people that kept that old guy rolling in dough.

In the new guy's own words, USAC will have zero input on where the money is spent. They hope it will mean more testing. He used the word "maybe" in his interview. Hope isn't a strategy. And yes, maybe that crack head you gave $25 will use it to take a bus to rehab. You hope.

So say they do test more. I've watched a bunch of different guys show up hours late to their drug tests. I know two people that were doping with 100% certainty pass and at least a half dozen that I could say were doping with 80-85% certainty pass. I won't even go to the pros for this.

Near as I can tell my Cat 1 peers don't dope anymore or less than anyone else, so I'm confused as to why I get the surcharge, for a worthless program with no accountability. It's easy to spend other people's money, but you're not like that so cover my $25 and we can both be happy. Some of you guys already have my PayPal address.


It's also horrible economics. Parse out the cost per doper caught if you do the analysis and projections and you're probably looking at $10,000-$60,000 per dummy, while the smart people skate.

Please tell me you'd rather spend that on education or development.

PLEASE.

Throwing more tests at people who know they can beat the system at their "A" race isn't going to change the overall number of racers doping by more than a percentage point or two. If that.

So what next?

Best bang for the buck is targeted, out of competition testing. Go look it up and it's comparing condoms to wearing socks as a birth control method. Be interesting to see the results of several people who got a knock on the door 3 weeks before nationals.

Or just test all the one day licenses. Because they are subject to the Olympic WADA list, just like the rest of us. You'd catch more people so your numbers would look good, and you could say you're cleaning up the sport.

I will be waiting on those Paypal payments.

Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-06-15 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 12-06-15, 01:24 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Yeah I got my first modern computer to participate in one for a collective of meditators doing a training. Dial up indeed. Will you ever forget that sound?
Ah the good old BBS days... dirty gifs and warez. I remember being really excited the day I replaced my 2400 baud with a 14.4.
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Old 12-06-15, 02:17 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
For those folks who want to characterize this Cat 1 as "whining about $25" you might want to check your assumptions at the door, and defer a bit to someone who's had a lot more experience with the dopers/doping/testing protocol. I could give a flying about $25. I could give a flying about spending $150,000 on something worthless when you could get something of value. I'd frankly rather wipe my ass with a $20 and a five, or a check written on soft paper.

You say we must do something, acknowledge that what you want to do doesn't work, but still want to do it. Read that several times.

You say give the new guy a chance. Well, the old guy who was completely dirty is still pulling down $150k as is the new guy who was hired to paper over the old guy with a show program and who, incidentally, was hired by the same people that kept that old guy rolling in dough.

In the new guy's own words, USAC will have zero input on where the money is spent. They hope it will mean more testing. He used the word "maybe" in his interview. Hope isn't a strategy. And yes, maybe that crack head you gave $25 will use it to take a bus to rehab. You hope.

So say they do test more. I've watched a bunch of different guys show up hours late to their drug tests. I know two people that were doping with 100% certainty pass and at least a half dozen that I could say were doping with 80-85% certainty pass. I won't even go to the pros for this.

Near as I can tell my Cat 1 peers don't dope anymore or less than anyone else, so I'm confused as to why I get the surcharge, for a worthless program with no accountability. It's easy to spend other people's money, but you're not like that so cover my $25 and we can both be happy. Some of you guys already have my PayPal address.


It's also horrible economics. Parse out the cost per doper caught if you do the analysis and projections and you're probably looking at $10,000-$60,000 per dummy, while the smart people skate.

Please tell me you'd rather spend that on education or development.

PLEASE.

Throwing more tests at people who know they can beat the system at their "A" race isn't going to change the overall number of racers doping by more than a percentage point or two. If that.

So what next?

Best bang for the buck is targeted, out of competition testing. Go look it up and it's comparing condoms to wearing socks as a birth control method. Be interesting to see the results of several people who got a knock on the door 3 weeks before nationals.

Or just test all the one day licenses. Because they are subject to the Olympic WADA list, just like the rest of us. You'd catch more people so your numbers would look good, and you could say you're cleaning up the sport.

I will be waiting on those Paypal payments.
All well and good - but are you boycotting USAC in 2016 or paying the $25?
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Old 12-06-15, 03:01 PM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
I've done plenty of MTB races where **** goes wrong. Break a spoke, blow a fork up, eat **** down a ravine. DNF without crossing the finish line. When I broke my hand in October, I had to drive myself to the hospital. The only reason the officials knew I was a DNF was because the Start/Finish area was en route back to my car. I've also done plenty of races where parking wasn't any where near the S/F, and if you had a mishap, it would be ridiculous for you to try to get to both the S/F en route to the parking lot.
I've been tested before. Here's how it works: No one knows testing is going to happen at the race. The finishing positions to test are selected prior to the race, so there's no accusation of bias. As soon as you finish, a tester latches onto you, and you don't leave their sight until you piss.

It would be hard to accidentally miss a test.

However! It wasn't a cycling race, so I'm not entirely sure how the vagaries of cycling would affect it. With the system I've experienced, if you don't finish, you don't get tested. So I guess if you had some inside knowledge you could deliberately crash out. But if you had the inside knowledge you could just not show up on the day.

Also, I guess placings are not always immediately obvious after a bike race, so that could make it tricky.
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Old 12-06-15, 03:08 PM
  #206  
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I can you tell you with certainty that when they tested the NJ state crit they announced that there was testing on the start line. Parking is beyond the start line and without that knowledge there's no way they would have gotten anyone to check in prior to banging a right out of turn one and heading to the car. There's simply no precedent for testing to make guys instinctively roll back and say 'hey, is there testing today?' Like I said early in the elite race they tested 1-3, but they selected random placings in the later non championship 35+ race, and someone got burnt for leaving.
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Old 12-06-15, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I can you tell you with certainty that when they tested the NJ state crit they announced that there was testing on the start line.
Well that's a bit daft isn't it? Did anyone get busted?

I can see that running it at the end of 45 minute crit next to the car park it would be possible for riders to leave without realizing they were chosen. On the other hand, my race yesterday finished down a cul-de-sac 5k from the start, and people finished in drips and drabs. Seems hard to miss testing there.

There would need to be some sort of procedure whereby 'testing or not' is conveyed at the finish line.

Everyone's perspective is different, and I'm looking at it from a scene where 95% of races are RRs. It would be harder at crits, sure.
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Old 12-06-15, 03:30 PM
  #208  
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Yes. A guy in the 35+ race (I mentioned this earlier in thread - so forgive the repetition) flatted inside the free lap rule and left. He was on the list. He wears the scarlet letter in the state now. Did he drop out to avoid testing? Was he really doping? Dunno. Never will. Did the system work? I guess it depends on the individual opinion. I know lots of guys who thought he got hosed, and lots of others who thought justice was done and where there's smoke there's fire.
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Old 12-06-15, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I just don't follow it. They can't come up with a way to effectively control doping in the pro ranks, despite biological passports, but now they're going to police the wild west of amateur racing? super meh. The day it costs me an extra hour at a race is probably the last time I pin up a number.


That said I'm not giving up my 1. Not for anyone. I worked hard for it, and it's mine.

I can also name as many lower cats / masters who got popped, as I can Cat 1s I'm not sure why the cost disparityand I don't really care about the money.
I agree with this. It already has cost me an extra hour at a race waiting for the winner to pee. The course was torn down and everyone nearly gone before were even able to do a podium presentation. It was ridiculous.

The whole thing is dumb, in my opinion. And I have a lot of things I'd rather send that 25 bucks on.
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Old 12-06-15, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
haha.

i actually get too many. this link helped me remove a few. i didn't know it was an option until this thing with gsteinb came up.

or maybe it was a conspiracy against road cat 1s to be excluded from that email so they wouldn't notice the surcharge? i'm just a 1 on the MTB...and they figure we are so dumb that they could send us the email and we'd still not get that it applies to us. (they were right!!)
I'm a one in road, mtn. and cross and I didn't get an email. My junior racer son got it and I read it on there. Weird.
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Old 12-06-15, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Yes. A guy in the 35+ race (I mentioned this earlier in thread - so forgive the repetition) flatted inside the free lap rule and left. He was on the list. He wears the scarlet letter in the state now.
So he was on the list to get tested and he left. Isn't that a clear violation? Anyway, the flatting/ crashing out/ dropped and gave up issue disappears if testing is done on finishing places, and no one knows about the testing until the finish.

I'm seeing a whole lot of people saying that $25 and a few tests won't work, so what would? Status quo with no $25 and minimal testing?

We had a masters guy here (New Zealand) get busted when he went and raced overseas. He is, sorry, was, a well known coach. I don't know of any testing that happens nationally, which is probably why he thought he could get away with it, and he would have had had stayed in NZ.

Personally I'd love some testing, and would be happy to pay for it.
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Old 12-06-15, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm
All well and good - but are you boycotting USAC in 2016 or paying the $25
I'm sure someone who's not a 1 but all for this program will put their money where their mouth is and cover my surcharge. Or you could just cover it, it's nothing, right? If not:

More likely than not I will try to downgrade. I have a nice jersey collection that I can go look at when my ego needs a boost, at best I am just pack fodder in a P/1 race, been there, done that, so there's really no reason for me to tacitly support an expensive show program that will have little to no positive impact.
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Old 12-06-15, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider

bottom line: if you miss a test, it's not good -- but it isn't as easy to miss one as you might think. let's hope it never comes to that for you.
It is easy. A crash, a flat, a mechanical; any reason for a DNF. If you don't go back to the tent and check your number, you're screwed.

I did a race last year that finished on a 3 mile climb. I was dropped 20 miles before that and just skipped the climb and went back to my car. I had to call someone at the finish just to verify I wasn't being randomly tested in which case I'd have had to drive 5 miles and back up the mountain to the finish.

If you don't make it to the finish or the official's tent or check with someone who does, then you're screwed. So, pretty easy.
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Old 12-06-15, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by shermo
So he was on the list to get tested and he left. Isn't that a clear violation? Anyway, the flatting/ crashing out/ dropped and gave up issue disappears if testing is done on finishing places, and no one knows about the testing until the finish.

I'm seeing a whole lot of people saying that $25 and a few tests won't work, so what would? Status quo with no $25 and minimal testing?

We had a masters guy here (New Zealand) get busted when he went and raced overseas. He is, sorry, was, a well known coach. I don't know of any testing that happens nationally, which is probably why he thought he could get away with it, and he would have had had stayed in NZ.

Personally I'd love some testing, and would be happy to pay for it.
Go buy a lottery ticket instead. Dopers have been passing a lot more tests than failing for the last 20 years. 90% of the pros doped and very few got caught with thousands of tests. Maybe 5-10% of the amateurs take stuff they aren't supposed to, probably half of them unknowingly. Do the math on catching that other 5%.

Throwing money at more tests without at minimum the same level of complexity that the pros have (bio passport/whereabouts/blood tests) is just repeating failure. You know that saying about insanity? Even with that there's still a ton of doping out there in the pros. Read the news.

See my post above, about the only thing that works with any remotely reasonable success at our level is for folks to drop a dime on folks that are too good to be true and catch them when they are "glowing" in the weeks before an a race. Otherwise it's just gambling for poeple that are bad at math.

What really works? Nothing. Sorry, you were hoping for a unicorn.

The new paradigm is for the dopers is to race a lot less, doing local unsanctioned stuff and training while on their program, then show up at a big race like nats where there's a chance of testing after their system clears. Then ride better than they did when they were 20-something pros.

Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-06-15 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 12-06-15, 05:13 PM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by shermo
So he was on the list to get tested and he left. Isn't that a clear violation?
Clear enough that he got suspended for two years I guess.
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Old 12-06-15, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval

If you don't make it to the finish or the official's tent or check with someone who does, then you're screwed. So, pretty easy.
Tracks Nats we had real time results on the pursuit up on the Tron. Winner knew right away. Went by the result sheet and saw they had written in blue ink for the winner in my age group to report for testing, which should have happened as soon as he came off the track. Friend called him on his cell phone, I heard he was up in the stands celebrating with his family. He came down and took care of business.

So yeah, easy.
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Old 12-06-15, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
You say we must do something, acknowledge that what you want to do doesn't work, but still want to do it. Read that several times.
you sound very informed on this topic, and i respect that.

have you heard lots of people saying that testing doesn't work? i read them saying that today's testing does not catch many people and/or can be outwitted because it is both rare and predictable. one can agree with that statement AND believe that a new program could be successful.

the reason i, personally, am OK with the surcharge is that i read that testing will be more widespread. seems like there are people being caught--it's just that testing today is limited.

Originally Posted by Racer Ex
You say give the new guy a chance. Well, the old guy who was completely dirty is still pulling down $150k as is the new guy who was hired to paper over the old guy with a show program and who, incidentally, was hired by the same people that kept that old guy rolling in dough.
to the point @mattm made, this sounds like a reason to boycott USAC altogether, not just the $25 surcharge.

what do you does joe average USAC member do here? buying a license supports corruption, and the only way to have hope is if a leader of the org neither comes from within the organization nor is chosen by members of that org.

what to do?

Originally Posted by Racer Ex
Near as I can tell my Cat 1 peers don't dope anymore or less than anyone else, so I'm confused as to why I get the surcharge, for a worthless program with no accountability. It's easy to spend other people's money, but you're not like that so cover my $25 and we can both be happy. Some of you guys already have my PayPal address.
I wish we knew the actual numbers, but I would put a little money on Masters Cat 1s being slightly more likely to dope than others -- particularly if you go based on accusations that get leveled.

you mentioned you were 100% sure some folks are doping (i assume that means witnessed 1st-hand) and 85% sure of others. have you tried the tip line? seems like the perfect use for it. truly.

on another forum i read about AGers being tested out of competition. isn't this possible with cyclists? perhaps the tip line might contribute to this.

i respect your opinion. i'm open to being swayed about any of these things -- and whether or not i should pay my $25 fee or downgrade. right now, i plan to pay, but i won't renew for a few months.
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Old 12-06-15, 08:13 PM
  #218  
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If a Cat1 wants to downgrade to avoid the surcharge, all power to them. I'm not a fan of the top-heavy surcharge as it exists today, but it is what it is. Do what you have to do.
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Old 12-06-15, 08:28 PM
  #219  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider
the podium picture on the steps, to me, just illustrates how silly it all is. doping....for that? ugh.
What's worse is he's got my name on his jersey!
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Old 12-06-15, 09:09 PM
  #220  
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To respond to Teton:

When I started out doping was pretty above ground in amateur racing. I have had people discuss their program and how they beat tests. I've raced against numerous people who later got popped; there are markers that pretty obvious.

Are Cat 1's more likely to dope? The statistics are so miniscule a sampling that what we derive from the "positives" aren't worth much, but if you look at them and overlay who gets tested the numbers would actually point to the folks below. But you could also make an argument that 1's who get there by doping are smarter, excluding the guy who couldn't taint his supplement with the right drug during his arbitration.

A new program could be successful. Is this a new program? No. We will have more tests. Nothing new there.

Could I boycott USAC? Practically, if I want to race, not really. They have been bullies in killing competition, and have a 80-85% vice (spelling intended) grip on racing in most of the country.

Want to affect change in USAC? Good luck. Dig a bit. It's incredibly opaque, with zero popular vote influence. I have been on an LA board. small time FIFA. Suck money, protect jobs, get a USOC job.

You do know the Weisel/Johnson/Lance connection?

Pointing out the program some folks have adopted (select-a-race and lay off the drugs for a week) you could argue that more testing or the threat of more testing drops the number of dopers in the Wal Mart Park crit circuit in some classes. The question I put forward is twofold: Could that money be better spent? Does it really affect systemic change?

My answers are pretty clear.

As far as dropping dimes, it's much more fun to beat folks than to have them get tossed. And frankly I think the vitriol that gets thrown at the amateur dopers fars exceeds the transgression. You either have to have some serious stuff to work out with yourself or beleive that everyone is doing it to dope in amateur racing. I guess that comes from being old and a little world weary at times.

One of the guys I raced against who got popped was living with his sister and was racing with a colostomy bag during his cancer treatment. He already got popped once. Racing was what he had. Pretty much all he had. Other folks can get righteous on him. Just not in me.

So it goes.

Last edited by Racer Ex; 12-06-15 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 12-06-15, 09:39 PM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
Enabler.
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Old 12-06-15, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
Go buy a lottery ticket instead. Dopers have been passing a lot more tests than failing for the last 20 years.
Sure, but there's plenty of examples where they have been caught. I think that's a good thing. Expanding it would make this happen more often. I realize it wouldn't solve the problem, but it would help.

Complaining that if we can't do it perfectly, then we shouldn't do it at all is pretty common, but I don't understand it.
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Old 12-06-15, 11:34 PM
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It would be much easier if the rules were only about things they can control and choose to control. Seems to me about 20% are in that category.
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Old 12-06-15, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
When I started out doping ... <snip>
damn...and i was getting ready for a juicy story!

;-)

Originally Posted by Racer Ex
Are Cat 1's more likely to dope?

my suspicions is that specifically masters cat 1's are more likely to dope vs whatever the average might be. i'd put, like, $5 on it.
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Old 12-07-15, 05:31 AM
  #225  
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my anecdotal evidence says that the guys who are going to dope start at cat 2 or earlier. They may continue on into masters 1 but guys don't start there.
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