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Old 02-07-18, 07:49 AM
  #2226  
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Some of you might find this seminar interesting: https://www.rti.org/event/winning-al...ent=1517957755
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Old 02-07-18, 09:36 PM
  #2227  
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Lance gets a lot of (justified) hate. But his recent two podcasts with Bryan Fogel (director and "star" of Icarus) was quite interesting. First I've ever heard him talk about his regiment or comment about it any manner at all. Interesting stuff. His impression of Dr. Ferrari was entertaining.
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Old 02-08-18, 09:11 AM
  #2228  
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I don't fault Lance for doping - everyone really was doing it. He was just better at it. Or, perhaps, his doping was no better than anyone else's, he just really was better. We will probably never know the answer to that. And I generally think this lawsuit he is facing is BS - USPS got the exposure it paid for because he was doping. They got what they wanted.

But, Lance was a horrible human being to anyone who questioned his success. He actively worked to ruin the careers of those people, often successfully. That is what, in my mind, is truly unforgivable.
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Old 02-08-18, 12:34 PM
  #2229  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I don't fault Lance for doping - everyone really was doing it.
Define "everyone"

Just his top competitors?

The whole pro peloton?

All the amateurs he stomped on to get to Europe?
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Old 02-08-18, 04:42 PM
  #2230  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
...
But, Lance was a horrible human being to anyone who questioned his success. He actively worked to ruin the careers of those people, often successfully. That is what, in my mind, is truly unforgivable.
I don't argue the point. What goes on off the bike (having nothing to do with cycling) should be none of the UCI's/USAC's/ASO's/USADA's/WADA's/IOC's or USPS's (OK - they are a sponsor - I take USPS back) business. Being a horrible person is separate from race victories. It may affect sponsorship. That was on him. The taking away 7 tour victories for someone never sanctioned for cheating around about the time of the event is silly.

I know who won those 7 tours.

Last edited by Doge; 02-08-18 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 02-08-18, 06:34 PM
  #2231  
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Its always depressing looking back at those tours and seeing all the American results voided amongst a litany of celebrated dopers from other countries.
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Old 02-08-18, 09:06 PM
  #2232  
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Didn't mean to turn this into a criticism of him (although I think many of us are of the same opinion). Just that him talking about Fogel's doping regimetn adn tell him he was over doing it. In summary he recounted Ferrari telling him he didn't need anything more than red blood cells. He said it was very rarely anything more than EPO and Folic acid + blood bags. Just interesting stuff to hear as I figured their regiments were these complicated things, but based on the way he portrayed it, it seems almost.. simple.
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Old 02-09-18, 07:59 AM
  #2233  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Define "everyone"

Just his top competitors?

The whole pro peloton?

All the amateurs he stomped on to get to Europe?
Pretty much the entire pro peloton. Yeah. There may have been some domestiques in the pro peloton who were clean, but I think they were probably the exception.

Lance didn't create doping. It was going on well before he got there. The Festina Affair happened in 98. Lance won his first tour in 99. Many of the guys in the pro peloton from that time period say they were really fast, but realized they had to dope to make it to the top level. Basically, they had to do what the other guy was doing. The TDF didn't name a replacement winner for the seven tours they stripped from Lance largely because they couldn't guarantee there was anyone clean in those events.

That said, Lance probably did more to refine and perfect the system of doping than anyone before him.
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Old 02-09-18, 09:09 AM
  #2234  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
... There may have been some domestiques in the pro peloton who were clean...
Using the domos to dope while GC guy is clean is a technique / trickery that is used. Think clean Nibali knew his guy was a bit jacked up when following him up the hill in his TdF win? He certainly benefited from it.
And we saw what Landis did for Lance. I don't think this is much different than in NFL a clean QB having a juiced up line.

It is a reason I like the idea of a team suspension. It does not have to be extreme, but as the "innocent" benefit, sharing in the discipline would aide to clean things up a bit more.
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Old 02-09-18, 10:43 AM
  #2235  
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I was just talking about Lance last night with my GF. I basically summed it up this way.

It's BS that his titles were stripped, but because he's such an ass, I find it hard to care.

Of course, this is entirely dependent on an opinion that I have formed without actually dealing with the guy. Meeting and dealing are two entirely separate things.
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Old 02-09-18, 06:01 PM
  #2236  
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He was trend setting on his approach to planning and training.
The drugs were a huge part of it, but he tested, pre-ran and planned everything.
I know so many people who I disprove of something they do, and I expect some is reciprocal. But it is pretty easy to sort that stuff out. I don't look to any athlete, actor or politician as a role model, but if they do something well, I think that is worth copying - if what they do matters. I'd love to have Lance as a consultant.
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Old 12-08-18, 11:13 PM
  #2237  
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Why we should allow performance enhancing drugs in sport

Some arguments https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/6/666
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Old 12-09-18, 08:41 AM
  #2238  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Why we should allow performance enhancing drugs in sport

Some arguments https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/6/666
for whom? your daughter? your son when he was 16? The wanna be pros who he raced against?

Try and find some balance in your reading and philosophical musings. Try McKibben's Enough, it's probably held up with time.

Last edited by gsteinb; 12-09-18 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 01-13-19, 09:20 AM
  #2239  
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At least it goes to a good cause.
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Old 02-16-19, 05:10 PM
  #2240  
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Un-drugged women born with XX chromosomes is naturally too high in testosterone. IAAF says athlete needs to take drugs to compete fairly.

The International Association of Athletics Federations consist of 17 countries agreement on how to make competition fair (my words). While generally running, Track&Field and not concerned with cycling, they deal with WADA too, so this is interesting as it relates to cycling doping and the basic think of how to make things fair. Growing up with extra T that is going to make a difference no matter how you got it.

This has happened more than once. Dutee Chand and current.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...evels-in-women
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Old 02-17-19, 09:24 AM
  #2241  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Un-drugged women born with XX chromosomes is naturally too high in testosterone. IAAF says athlete needs to take drugs to compete fairly.

The International Association of Athletics Federations consist of 17 countries agreement on how to make competition fair (my words). While generally running, Track&Field and not concerned with cycling, they deal with WADA too, so this is interesting as it relates to cycling doping and the basic think of how to make things fair. Growing up with extra T that is going to make a difference no matter how you got it.

This has happened more than once. Dutee Chand and current.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...evels-in-women
Wow. Isn't the statement "The revised rules are not about cheating, no athlete with a [difference of sexual development] has cheated, they are about levelling the playing field to ensure fair and meaningful competition in the sport of athletics where success is determined by talent, dedication and hard work rather than other contributing factors," relegating a natural genetic difference to the category of "other contributing factors" ? If so shouldn't the same reasoning apply to other genetic advantages as well as T?

The science, understanding and measurement of physiology and performance in aerobic sports are only going to get better. Seems like a very slippery slope.
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Old 02-17-19, 09:37 AM
  #2242  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76 View Post
Wow. Isn't the statement "The revised rules are not about cheating, no athlete with a [difference of sexual development] has cheated, they are about levelling the playing field to ensure fair and meaningful competition in the sport of athletics where success is determined by talent, dedication and hard work rather than other contributing factors," relegating a natural genetic difference to the category of "other contributing factors" ? If so shouldn't the same reasoning apply to other genetic advantages as well as T?

The science, understanding and measurement of physiology and performance in aerobic sports are only going to get better. Seems like a very slippery slope.
There is a large group that believes achievement [in anything] that does not come mostly from dedication and hard work, needs leveling - by them, or another committee. As they learn one area, some other unfair thing will come up. I have no short term hope.

It is the leveling that is so hard to do. Tie a rock on them, or give them drugs, or the other way, add bionics or give them drugs, or make them just pay more for everything. It is a slippery slope.

The other thing "they" do is add yet another division. There are about 200 USAC National Champion categories right now.
We have gender, age, equipment categories now. Weight is another common one.

Last edited by Doge; 02-17-19 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 03-07-19, 12:46 PM
  #2243  
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Oh boy. Here we go again. A Blood doping ring in cross country skiing was uncovered that include pro cyclists. Authorities found bags of blood with coded names on them. And the anti doping passport protocol failed to pick up the doping.

https://www.velonews.com/2019/03/new...cycling_483916
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Old 03-07-19, 01:29 PM
  #2244  
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If its just straight blood doping and nothing else 'external' it seems awfully hard to catch someone in the act; the numbers can look better and suspect but it seems like someone could talk their way out of it (I slept well, my numbers always go in after X days of racing). I'm not sure if there's a definitive test tho catch blood doping (dead cell percentage, etc) but it doesn't seem like an easy task.

Honestly, I think its a good sign that the cheaters are only resorting to this (hopefully I'm not wrong). Back in the day, blood doping was an add on for cheaters, like fries and a coke. Now that its the main course shows there is some progress.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:14 PM
  #2245  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
If its just straight blood doping and nothing else 'external' it seems awfully hard to catch someone in the act; the numbers can look better and suspect but it seems like someone could talk their way out of it (I slept well, my numbers always go in after X days of racing). I'm not sure if there's a definitive test tho catch blood doping (dead cell percentage, etc) but it doesn't seem like an easy task.

Honestly, I think its a good sign that the cheaters are only resorting to this (hopefully I'm not wrong). Back in the day, blood doping was an add on for cheaters, like fries and a coke. Now that its the main course shows there is some progress.
I thought that was what the test for the plasticizers that leach out of the bags were for. I suppose you could store it in glass bottles.
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Old 03-07-19, 02:45 PM
  #2246  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
If its just straight blood doping and nothing else 'external' it seems awfully hard to catch someone in the act; the numbers can look better and suspect but it seems like someone could talk their way out of it (I slept well, my numbers always go in after X days of racing). I'm not sure if there's a definitive test tho catch blood doping (dead cell percentage, etc) but it doesn't seem like an easy task.
If the manipulation is recent you can detect it by looking for juvenile red blood cells. The number of "baby" cells (reticulocytes) goes up after extraction and down after re-infusion as the body up or down regulates new blood cell production.
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Old 10-01-19, 01:05 PM
  #2247  
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So it turns out Track and Field is as dirty as cycling was and Nike was at the heart of it: https://www.wsj.com/articles/nike-ce...948694?tesla=y
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Old 10-18-19, 08:36 AM
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Here’s an article that just came out a few weeks ago, looking at muscle mass and strength in transgender men and transgender women over the first 12 months of gender transition. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...82557.full.pdf

Bottom line:
Transgender women (ie persons who transitioned from male to female) lose muscle mass over their first 12 months of transition but not muscle strength. Transgender men gain muscle mass to a much greater degree than transgender women lose muscle mass. Yet transgender men do not have greater muscle strength than trans women- ie if you take the female body and add testosterone, it is still not stronger than the formerly male trans woman body.

During the 12 month study period, serum testosterone levels for transgender women were in the female range, meaning if the study subjects were racing under UCI or USAC rules, they’d race as women.

The study subjects were not athletes nor were they training in any way. Just moderately active people, most of their exercise was walking.

All of which supports my previous arguments in this thread that although aerobic performance may be diminished in transgender women, body size and muscle mass differences remain with trans women being larger than cis women. This study specifically demonstrates that trans women retain the muscle strength they had as a male, at least for the first 12 months after transition. Thus, they likely have a very significant advantage over cisgender women in any sport in which sprinting is important. All of which is what you’d predict if you have a good understanding of physiology, but you never know for sure unless you set up a study and see.
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Old 10-20-19, 10:01 PM
  #2249  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
...
Bottom line:
Transgender women (ie persons who transitioned from male to female) lose muscle mass over their first 12 months of transition but not muscle strength. Transgender men gain muscle mass to a much greater degree than transgender women lose muscle mass. Yet transgender men do not have greater muscle strength than trans women- ie if you take the female body and add testosterone, it is still not stronger than the formerly male trans woman body.
...
Equally as absurd is suggesting natural women too high in T take chemicals to reduce their ability (running situation).
NO way a committee can figure this out. I think pro games are silly, but they are entertainment, so whatever turns out to be most entertaining wins. Fairness went out way long ago. You have to enjoy competing because it is fun, not because it is just.
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Old 10-20-19, 10:18 PM
  #2250  
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Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
Sudafed isn't a problem as long as you keep to the dosage on the box. This applies to both the four- and twelve-hour versions. I use it often enough that I checked it out.

I was taking lisinopril + HCTZ for high blood pressure. When I started racing I had my doc change the prescription to just lisinopril because HCTZ is a known masking agent.
I was officiating soccer games using (basic running stuff) HR monitor/GPS. I had a big game and a cold. I took the OTC stuff in OTC dosage. My HR was a good 10 beats higher. I never did that again.
At least for me, one tablet changes things a lot.
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