globecanvas

There are plenty of well documented cases of lower category racers doping. Just because they are lower category racers does not mean doping does not matter. That's faulty logic.

Doge

My BF time is not my logic time. I think so many see talent (and work) and are lead to think PEDs are involved, and then justify it for themselves. I don't think a fully doped Cat 3, or Cat 1 can compete with the best talent riding clean. Sure, a TdF 20th place might get to a top 5, or top 1, but I don't believe you go from putz to pro winner doing anything less than a motor. I suspect a few riders I know dope, but in general, to me a winner is a winner, until they are busted. Then they are a cheater, but seems they often also possess a lot of talent.
Again, just from watching and opinion, not applying any logic here.

globecanvas

Best quote ever.


My takeaway from Tyler Hamilton's book was that doping is like a training amplifier. if you're talented and train hard, you get more benefit from doping than joe shmoe who takes some pills and expects to be superman.

I remember reading a quote from Bjarne Riis or somebody saying that they selected for talented hard-working riders who happened to have genetically low HCT because they would get the most benefit from EPO. Tommy D was the example.

TheKillerPenguin

One of them started on a program as a 4 and wound up going pro before he got popped. The other also started as a 4, but got popped at a Fondo and had only progressed into the 2's by then. I had suspicions related to a few others based on the sort of joking but not really types of things they'd say in private about epo that went along with sudden boosts in performance. They are no longer involved in the sport though.

Edit: In both cases I believe they were popped for EPO.

Enthalpic

Superman was clean, a better example would be Captain America.



I don't fully buy the argument that PEDs only amplify training. Dopers like to say crap like that so they don't feel like such cheaters. Sure you have to train but never underestimate drugs. Just look at bulls and gorillas - all they do is eat, rest and screw...

caloso

It was my understanding that some of these PEDs like HGH, testosterone, and steroids worked because they allowed you to train harder and recover faster, that is they allowed you to workout more.

EPO and that new fad drug meldonium are different in that they deliver more O2 to the tissues.

gsteinb

The Internet is loaded with forums about drug usage. Bodybuilding forums. How to get high off otc and script drugs. How to pass tests for work. I assume plenty of other sports. Not much to indicate it's fake.

Racer Ex 

There's a whole website dedicated to cheating at Zwift where they discuss how to change the slope in you PM or virtual trainer, hack your ANT+ dongle to over report wattages, and how to change your weight in real time through a third party shareware.

Racer Ex 

That's because it's a load of bull****.

Doge

Two things have changed about EPO in the last decade or so.
1st - they limited the HCT effect of what EPO, or nature could do. So this EPO blood slush thing was gone - EPO or not, if the athlete didn't dehydrate mid event.
Seems like EPO does other stuff, I don't know how much
2nd - they have an EPO test.
So, EPO I *think* is under control. But the list is big. Female pregnancy to ED drugs to eating Mexican meat and getting the beef drugs (really).

Racer Ex 

Still around, people still getting careless and getting popped for it. The HCT limit just gave the low folks a bigger advantage, or the Ricco's an exemption claiming they were higher naturally.

Har har.

And the test still has holes. Blood passport might be doing more there than the test.

Like to think that the wink wink old school mentality that everyone is doing it getting flushed out of the sport at the pro level might have a bigger overall impact. I think a lot of the master's nonsense is just that mentality lingering around as well. A decade ago it wasn't uncommon to have people discuss taking PED's at a race. Heck, all the pros are doing it, duh. It was kinda eye opening when you hit a certain level.

That was the days before every third commercial was telling you to "ask your doctor" and you could waltz down to a clinic and get a scrip or into GNC and get MEGAsTaCk4000. Or Chinese EPO. Where this will end up isn't a big guess. And for the yutes out there it's easy to make fun of old guys taking stuff until it's your pencil that goes limp. And yes, it can happen to you.

But to win a Velopromo T shirt with the event name spelled wrong?

shovelhd

I didn't know about that one. Sick.

canuckbelle

I just learned that Monster energy drinks contain something on the banned list...

topflightpro

I always found this article interesting: Drug Test | Outside Online

The author talks a lot about how much easier it was train when on a big regimen of drugs.

caloso

I cherish my Modetso Crit t-shirt!

hack

ha...that is outrageous

i think the awfulness of the shirts make them all the better

Doge

It is believable an amateur would not know they are taking banned stuff. Nor might a pro, but that is part of their job. I mentioned Mexican meat - living in SoCal, that is a real threat. When we were sponsored by MRI, we were given a list of their products that juniors could not take, we just took none of their products for risk of cross contamination - you know the warning on the label "this product is produced in factories where things that will get you banned are produced." (just kidding).

Racer Ex 

I meant to post this on Friday.

(snicker)

Doge

I get the feeling it has changed. I don't hear/see kids accusing other kids of doping and those that do dope and we hear about in the press get tagged as too weak to compete anyway. If they start catching the winners, then I think we have a problem, but so far the low performers are the ones being caught. I have been around/house parent to half a dozen kids I believe don't think about doping (of course I wouldn't know, but I expect I would have suspension). And as USA was/is right now the top junior racing country if the Euros are doping (I also think they are not), it isn't working. Of course they are not low 20s looking for a contract. My son thinks doping is overrated for performance and it is just a shortcut to what you can get the hard way. I think he is wrong, but have no interest in him agreeing with me on this one.

carpediemracing 

Sounds dangerous. If a rider believes doping is just a quicker way to get the same performance it's different than boosting performance.

Although I joke that I'm not a good specimen for doping because I already have a high hematocrit and my FTP is so bad that I need to see 100%+ increases to become somewhat pro level, I also know that if I take EPO my HCT will climb. Even my somewhat high HCT has room for growth, maybe 15-18% to get into heart attack territory (48% -> 65%). I may die but I'll have blood like molasses if I wanted. That's not normal - there's no way I could hit 65% HCT without drugs.

Ditto hormones like steroids, test, etc. Just look at a bodybuilder. Junior could lift for decades and never get to a point equal to the guys that boast "I may die young but they'll need a piano case to bury me" (someone's signature in some forum, I think it was mentioned in "Drug Test" in Outside Magazine). I have a teammate that was a bodybuilder. He looks nothing like a body builder now. I asked him why he stopped. He said that he got to a point where to do better he'd need to use drugs.

I would agree with Junior in the sense that the more over the counter stuff, like pseudoephedrine, caffeine, etc, are more along those lines. They allow you to perform at perhaps a higher level at a given moment but still within the athlete's biological envelope. It won't change HCT much, it won't better recovery (I think some make it worse?), etc. But these things really don't do much for performance, from what I understand. I understand that there may be a slight improvement in performance, but it's not going to be the same as increasing HCT by 15% or recovering from 200km rides overnight.

Doge

I don't think the kids really know much or talk much about PEDs - for cycling. Social drugs, sure. I hear that and I know of uses - even though its always hidden from parents and illegal - and we all have a pretty good idea of the network. But I never hear of banned PED (specific) talk or know of uses. The rowers talk a lot about it. Junior thinks rowing is significantly worse than cycling at the youth level. You can see pretty high octane OTC (but WADA banned) at the boat house being passed around. Anyway it seems as I hear of it for rowing and social drugs both when I'm not supposed to, I'd hear of it for cycling if it were going on. Maybe I'm out of touch, but I think the kids are PED free.

I'm more concerned about the pros if that ever did become a path. Because the belief that you have to dope to be a pro still lingers - true or not. That is/was one of several drivers to go to college at the expense of cycling. Good choice, but saddens me too.

Juniors coach was Mr. Olympia (I think twice) - 100# and 40 years ago.

Ygduf

... which allows you to literally train harder and stimulate more training gains (lifelong)

hack

sadly ... it wouldn't be all that surprising if a site like that existed

cruiserhead

truth.

gsteinb

Bobby Lea - I totally called it