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Junior gear and why you care...

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Junior gear and why you care...

Old 12-29-15, 09:43 PM
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I think junior gear restrictions in mountain bike racing should be implemented before road racing. You're going to see far more low-cadence, high torque efforts in MTB than road, yet it's completely ignored.
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Old 12-29-15, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
If juniors have to turn the pedals 30% more that doesn't mean less fatigue to me.
That is less fatigue though - at least less torque needed to turn the pedals, and in turn less damage/stress on the joints.

At any rate, I don't see what the problem is - are juniors being held back by this? If so, that would mean they aren't going pro, ever, because they can't compete enough to get noticed.

But they do go pro, so that line of reasoning doesn't hold..
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Old 12-30-15, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mattm
...
At any rate, I don't see what the problem is - are juniors being held back by this? If so, that would mean they aren't going pro, ever, because they can't compete enough to get noticed.

But they do go pro, so that line of reasoning doesn't hold..
The problem is where the max power band is. It is not can they spin at 150 or whatever, rather can they put out max power at 150. My kid puts out max power about 100 RPM, others about 110, few above that.
I think held back is relative. Sure it cost a place or two. But I'm not convinced spinning 110 vs 90 in pros is better. Our juniors are the best in the world, but are adults are not. I'm sure location has something to do with it, but the transition is not being made.
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Old 12-30-15, 12:11 AM
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I would think USAC mostly cares about performance in jr-only races like l'Abitibi, and other stage races with jr-only cats, rather than how a jr does in NCC crits against pros on sr gears.

That's why I'm thinking it doesn't really matter if the kiddies are held back when racing against people on adult gears, at least in the long run.
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Old 12-30-15, 12:31 AM
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^that

I thought I've read you (Doge) saying that Jr team's are typically selected by performances in big Jr races (e.g., Valley of Sun or Sea Otter).
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Old 12-30-15, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent
I think junior gear restrictions in mountain bike racing should be implemented before road racing. You're going to see far more low-cadence, high torque efforts in MTB than road, yet it's completely ignored.
junior gear restrictions precede the existence of mountain biking.
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Old 12-30-15, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
Reason 1. If you are riding with a junior and beat them - your win is not really legitimate if you put it over a 52X14 to win.

This whole thread (and a lot of stuff that doge posts) makes me scratch my head...but this particular bit makes me lol a little.
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Old 12-30-15, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
You bring up a good example of rule breaking that is not cheating. But that is another thread.
Actually, since an admin closed it, it's not.
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Old 12-30-15, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
junior gear restrictions precede the existence of mountain biking.
Sorry, I wasn't talking about the chronology of it. I was saying it would make more sense to have them in place in MTB than it does for the road.

IMO, if someone wants to blow up their knees, they'll find a way to do it, and a 52x14 high gear isn't going to prevent that.
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Old 12-30-15, 09:40 AM
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I truly believe a 52x16 top gear should be employed at 10-12, 13-14, 15-16 and cat5 level. It teaches the craft, before moving up. Belgie's have it right.
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Old 12-30-15, 10:06 AM
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These don't really apply as a counter-argument since the experimental intervals are too short. That is, the "injury prevention programs" are usually a maximum of 10-15 weeks, which is way too short. The programs need to be multi-year.
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Old 12-30-15, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
These don't really apply as a counter-argument since the experimental intervals are too short. That is, the "injury prevention programs" are usually a maximum of 10-15 weeks, which is way too short. The programs need to be multi-year.
Ok, show me the multi year intervention that was done which "makes the women's injury rates the same as men's."
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Old 12-30-15, 10:34 AM
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Came out here yesterday on a whim. Glad I did. I didn't realize enough of you guys were still in here.
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Old 12-30-15, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic
Ok, show me the multi year intervention that was done which "makes the women's injury rates the same as men's."
Hasn't been done yet, for I'd hope obvious reasons. However, all the data shows that the longer the injury prevention program, the lower the injury rates. So...pretty reasonable to expect that to continue if it's part of girls' soccer from much younger ages. Will it be exactly the same as boys'/mens'? Who knows. But social mores against girls/women in the weight room are contributing to the injury problem.
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Old 12-30-15, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Hasn't been done yet, for I'd hope obvious reasons. However, all the data shows that the longer the injury prevention program, the lower the injury rates. So...pretty reasonable to expect that to continue if it's part of girls' soccer from much younger ages. Will it be exactly the same as boys'/mens'? Who knows. But social mores against girls/women in the weight room are contributing to the injury problem.
Your statement sounded like it was based on science - not opinion.

You can't do huge extrapolations...
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Old 12-30-15, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic
<snip>You can't do huge extrapolations...
...I can though. My weight went up by 1 lb overnight. I should be on course to weigh ~580 lbs this time next year.
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Old 12-30-15, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Hasn't been done yet, for I'd hope obvious reasons. However, all the data shows that the longer the injury prevention program, the lower the injury rates. So...pretty reasonable to expect that to continue if it's part of girls' soccer from much younger ages. Will it be exactly the same as boys'/mens'? Who knows. But social mores against girls/women in the weight room are contributing to the injury problem.
The primary reason given for knee injury in cycling is position and fatigue - for both genders, neither of which USAC addresses. The injury argument for junior gears, well - evidence? I agree it might be good training, just don't see training and coaching as a mandated requirement for one group only (juniors) as the best role for USAC. USAC have made "real racing" an adults only sport.
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Old 12-30-15, 11:14 AM
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Why you would diminish other classes as not real, or over dramatize the disadvantage is beyond me.
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Old 12-30-15, 11:16 AM
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I have to say, 2 pages in and I still don't care about junior gearing.
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Old 12-30-15, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Why you would diminish other classes as not real, or over dramatize the disadvantage is beyond me.
There's a pretty consistent common theme that I'm sure is not beyond you.

You may be too tactful to state it directly.
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Old 12-30-15, 11:19 AM
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What's the cutoff age for racing in p12 vs. a junior's-only race?
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Old 12-30-15, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
Why you would diminish other classes as not real, or over dramatize the disadvantage is beyond me.
I didn't. Just think part of cycling "real" is when you can choose the bike, saddle, wheels, tires, gears, diet and training methods you want to compete against others.
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Old 12-30-15, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge
I didn't. Just think part of cycling "real" is when you can choose the bike, saddle, wheels, tires, gears, diet and training methods you want to compete against others.
You mean like UCI pro racing?

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Old 12-30-15, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
What's the cutoff age for racing in p12 vs. a junior's-only race?
There isn't.

I'm ok with a Cat5 restriction, but 15-16, no way. 15-18 Juniors should ride category gear restrictions (proposed Cat5) only when racing in category fields.

This is is one area where I agree completely with Doge, which is quite rare.
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Old 12-30-15, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
I have to say, 2 pages in and I still don't care about junior gearing.
I'm impressed.
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