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Junior gear and why you care...

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Junior gear and why you care...

Old 01-13-16, 05:21 PM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by Doge
I don't see this is something kids cheat on. They just don't pass sometimes mostly because they forgot to change wheels.
The other way is have a flat tire.
So what does the referee do with this one (see rear tire)?
who are you still trying to convince that jr. gearing is a legit good idea?
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Old 01-13-16, 05:23 PM
  #127  
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Apparently no one here.
The guys I was trying to convince at USAC - are gone now.
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Old 01-13-16, 05:36 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Doge
I don't see this is something kids cheat on. They just don't pass sometimes mostly because they forgot to change wheels.
The other way is have a flat tire.
So what does the referee do with this one (see rear tire)?
I wasn't working that race, but IMO this is where it comes down to the two principles, safety and fairness. That flat tire most likely cost him in energy and field position. If this is a crit (which was what we were discussing), and he takes his free lap, then he gets inserted back into the field, and even if he was overgeared by the tire, he didn't gain any advantage.

Juniors forgetting to change their wheels? Sorry. Not putting Junior wheels in the pit even though there was neutral support? Sorry. It's not whether you want to coin it cheating, it's whether the rider had an unfair advantage over the others due to something that was avoidable. You want a free lap because your skewer broke? OK. Because it's loose? Sorry.
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Old 01-25-16, 10:33 PM
  #129  
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A very nice polite talented guy that along with Daniel Holloway likely would have been 2,3, or 3,4 if the two juniors that were off the front had the same gear as they did. But - they didn't. It is a somewhat hollow win said a few spectators.

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Old 01-26-16, 06:38 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Doge
A very nice polite talented guy that along with Daniel Holloway likely would have been 2,3, or 3,4 if the two juniors that were off the front had the same gear as they did. But - they didn't. It is a somewhat hollow win said a few spectators.



"made this weakened a party" - brilliant

"way to take direction" - best compliment ever


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Old 01-26-16, 09:11 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
"made this weakened a party" - brilliant
if you don't follow bahati on instagram you...uh...should.
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Old 04-17-16, 10:07 PM
  #132  
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Just saw Garmin data from National TTT. To keep up with speed on multiple descents the kids would have had to spin 156RPM. They didn't. They freewheeled with fairly high friction freewheels (another issue).
The Pro teams had 6 guys to the kid's 4 (rules).
If that would have made a difference of ~2 min in 20 miles the kids may have beat the pros. True, mostly Brandon, but silly to race them together and then so handicap the kids.
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Old 05-10-16, 11:22 AM
  #133  
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Just thought I'd point out that a 17-year-old was sitting in fourth place overall at Speedweek going into Athens Twilight. He finished 16th in Athens, so I'm not sure how that affected his overall.

The junior gearing didn't seem to hold him back any.
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Old 05-10-16, 11:31 AM
  #134  
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Maybe it held him back three places in the overall?
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Old 07-23-23, 04:13 PM
  #135  
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Found this old thread. Problem "fixed".

Next thing will be if they (juniors) are allowed to ride World Tour.

Specifically - I would expect a junior to win a spring classic within 10 years of being allowed to race. They have to be allowed first. I think we will see a junior allowed before 2030.
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Old 07-23-23, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle
Based on what?? Why do we need easier gears to avoid injury?

The argument for juniors is that they're also still growing. Women aren't. The analogy fails. What's your argument?
Adult women, who were born women, have a monthly hormonal cycle that softens tendons. That is a contributor to why they have 6X the ACL injuries than men. My reasons might be wrong, but the fact is they have many more knee injuries than men.
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Old 11-20-23, 05:28 PM
  #137  
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Again posting here even though I haven't raced in years.

Years ago (about 10) when I was in my late 50's I was on a team ride leading to chase down a break for a city limit sign. I didn't know that I was in my 39 tooth chain ring and pushing a 15 tooth cog and still going 34 mph. My teammates said that I looked smooth.

There was a reason why in the old days racers trained some on fixed gear bikes. Back then you didn't have as much flexibility when selecting gears and shifting under load was much more iffy, You had to be able to perform with suboptimal gearing.

I also understand why junior gearing is employed. It is to teach proper pedaling and not just stomping on the pedals.
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Old 11-20-23, 07:38 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by mollusk
Again posting here even though I haven't raced in years.

Years ago (about 10) when I was in my late 50's I was on a team ride leading to chase down a break for a city limit sign. I didn't know that I was in my 39 tooth chain ring and pushing a 15 tooth cog and still going 34 mph. My teammates said that I looked smooth.

There was a reason why in the old days racers trained some on fixed gear bikes. Back then you didn't have as much flexibility when selecting gears and shifting under load was much more iffy, You had to be able to perform with suboptimal gearing.

I also understand why junior gearing is employed. It is to teach proper pedaling and not just stomping on the pedals.
168 rpm? Hmm.
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Old 11-20-23, 10:29 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by mollusk
...It is to teach proper pedaling and not just stomping on the pedals.
Teaching has no business in regulations.
For under 50 miles:
Stomping on pedals makes you go faster. Spinning is slower.
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Old 11-21-23, 03:04 PM
  #140  
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I have been told by several pros that even raced UCI that I had a great pedal stroke.

I never rode track but had been told by several people that did that I would be great at the flying 1 K with training.

My normal cadence was about 100 rpm for an easy spin.

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Old 11-21-23, 03:34 PM
  #141  
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168 sounds about right.
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Old 11-21-23, 04:43 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Teaching has no business in regulations.
For under 50 miles:
Stomping on pedals makes you go faster. Spinning is slower.
In my experience stomping followed by a transition to spinning gives the highest sprint speed. Three stomps out of the saddle was usually optimal for me. No way to stomp at speeds over 40 mph. Elite track sprinters spin at over 200 rpm BTW. They don't stomp.
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Old 11-21-23, 05:10 PM
  #143  
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Many winters ago I was out doing a "sweet spot" ride because in Florida the racing season starts early and I couldn't put everything into base miles. Anyway the Sakkonet (sp?) team was in town for base training. I think that two of their riders were local. Off the top of my head it might have been Bobby Sweeting, Shawn Gravois and maybe Phil Gaimon but I think that Phil was beyond the youth training thing.

Anyway they are ahead of me on what we locally call Angle Road. I turned onto it when they were just cresting the small hill maybe 1/4 mile ahead. Because they are doing base at about 20 mph and I was doing sweet spot that for me was about 22 mph I was slowly catching up to them.

Not far after there was a bridge over a creek that had rough pavement and one of the Sakkonet riders lost a water bottle going over it. Several Sakkonet riders circled back to get it and followed me up the road. One of them said "Nice pedal stroke!" as they passed me and rejoined their group.

I had a very nice pedal stroke

Soon after I caught up to them but declined to join their ride. It wasn't what I had planned for that day.

Last edited by mollusk; 11-22-23 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 11-22-23, 08:27 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by mollusk
In my experience stomping followed by a transition to spinning gives the highest sprint speed. Three stomps out of the saddle was usually optimal for me. No way to stomp at speeds over 40 mph. Elite track sprinters spin at over 200 rpm BTW. They don't stomp.
They also have a fixed gear therefore have no choice.
Are you saying 200RPM will produce more power than say...less RPM?

My context - although I didn't state it was for a road cyclist doing something like a TT. And I stomped a lot at 40+. I also had a 57x11 at my disposal.

Last edited by Doge; 11-30-23 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 11-24-23, 09:21 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by Doge
They also have a fixed gear therefore have no choice.
Are you saying 200RPM will produce more power than say...less RPM?

My context - although I didn't sate it was for a road cyclist doing something like a TT. And I stomped a lot at 40+. I also had a 57x11 at my disposal.
I can't imagine racing with a 57 tooth front ring. Just trying to imagine how big the second chain ring would have to be for shifting.

Stomping at 40+ mph is not something that I know, Spinning at 40+ MPH is something that I do know but only on my best days as an old (late 50's) Masters racer.
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Old 11-27-23, 08:13 AM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Are you saying 200RPM will produce more power than say...less RPM?
All other things being equal - Yes.
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Old 11-27-23, 10:23 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
All other things being equal - Yes.
You will not find any road pro doing much over 120RPM other than maybe a sprint.
Because 13T, 12T and 11T cogs exist.
This should be a dead thread as both UCI and USAC now both agree with me. It is not their business to make a rule about something that is coaching with no evidence of any safety issue.

Looking back, would more juniors have won pro races? I think so, but can't prove that.
Were gear restrictions much more significant than drugs - sure.
Did some of the most talented juniors in the world just up and quit - yup.
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Old 11-30-23, 05:18 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by Doge
They freewheeled with fairly high friction freewheels (another issue).
<joke>They had ancient gearing with free wheels?</joke>

They couldn't run a proper freehub?

Last edited by mollusk; 11-30-23 at 05:20 PM. Reason: more info
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