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2016 - Race Results

Old 07-28-16, 01:19 PM
  #1251  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
a missed test = a negative. the guy gave his team a lame excuse; he got booted from the team. still, it casts some (further) doubt on the sport.

i have to say that i have been on a bunch of starting lines this year (eg Gila 1/2) where they announced USADA is testing, then when you show up at the finish line they inform us that our field is not being tested.

other than nationals, this is the first race that i saw this year where testing occurred outside of a p1 field. i'm all for more testing.
I can't believe a missed test is a negative.

A missed test should mean an at home visit that night or something. The thing is he didn't have to do what he did in the race. It's like getting into a Ferrari and going 150 mph down the interstate. Everyone can't help but notice. If you just drive sanely then it's just a Ferrari driving normally down the road.

They tested a slew of races/fields locally this year. I wish I was on my 2015 schedule, I'd have been tested maybe once, if I'd chosen my race well (meaning if I did Masters instead of Cat 3). Getting tested is maybe the biggest thing outside my control that I want out of a cycling life, meaning I want to get tested.
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Old 07-28-16, 01:46 PM
  #1252  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
I can't believe a missed test is a negative.

A missed test should mean an at home visit that night or something. The thing is he didn't have to do what he did in the race. It's like getting into a Ferrari and going 150 mph down the interstate. Everyone can't help but notice. If you just drive sanely then it's just a Ferrari driving normally down the road.

They tested a slew of races/fields locally this year. I wish I was on my 2015 schedule, I'd have been tested maybe once, if I'd chosen my race well (meaning if I did Masters instead of Cat 3). Getting tested is maybe the biggest thing outside my control that I want out of a cycling life, meaning I want to get tested.
oh, man....wtf.....my fault. missed test = sanction / positive. sorry 'bout that!

yeah, i guess it goes to show you how big an ego can get. when he heard there was testing on the line, he could have just cruised for a pack finish and it would have been a real longshot (unless he, specifically, was targeted, which may have been the case) to get called.
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Old 07-28-16, 01:52 PM
  #1253  
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Originally Posted by hack View Post
I've got to assume San Rafael is close-ish to an NCC race in terms of field power and race intensity?
I don't really know, but from what I understand there's a BIG difference between a pro/1 NCC crit and just about any p/1/2 race, even a "big" local crit like San Rafael.

Last year it was on a national crit calendar (but not "NCC", i.e. no $20k prize purse), and it was fast but not crazy fast.

Pro/1 NCC races don't F around (again from what I hear); guys are taking super crazy risks because a) it's their job b) LOTS of money on the line and c) better to tell your race director you got crashed out than finished 30th.

The Pro/1 NCC races are usually at least half pros in the field, whereas San Rafael will probably have 5-10 at most, with no big pro team representation. San Rafael has lots of money for a local crit ($2k?), but not the NCC-level of cash on the line.

Anyway it's a fun race, mostly bc it's at night! And the backside is barely lit, which is extra exciting.
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Old 07-28-16, 01:52 PM
  #1254  
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Originally Posted by Flatballer View Post
If the pros skip a test like that I assume there are pretty serious consequences. Why should it be any different for amateurs? Seems like the smart strategy is to dope like crazy and just skip out on any tests and say you had to get home to take your daughter to soccer practice or whatever. Easy.
yes. i mistyped earlier. there should be a sanction. not sure of severity.

it is lame to do what he did and implies guilt, and yet i am sure there will be some people who think "gee, i've left after a race before without checking to see if i was called to test; i can see how an honest mistake could occur."

however, in this case (a) the announcement was VERY prominent, (b) #2 in the race was tested and knew to check & report immediately (as did all the rest of us), and (c) the guy didn't collect his prize money (which was about $500) + didn't start the 1/2/3 race for which he'd paid.

all of that will be forgotten, though, and i'm sure some folks will still give him the benefit of the doubt.

Originally Posted by canuckbelle View Post
That is shifty AF. I don't think a one time missing of a test should be enough to count as a fail, but it should go on one's record...as a strike or something. But to miss the podium AND DNS the next day's race? Yeah, that guy was glowing for sure. NOW I think USADA should target him for a random home test.
well, something tells me we won't see him for a while.

i think a 1-time missed test should be a significant sanction, not just on a record. reason? it is SO DAMN RARE for an amateur to get called for testing, so when you miss it it's a big deal. most amateurs i know who manage to get tested are actually PROUD of that fact. it's telling when someone runs and hides.

i think they should assume he was on the worst possible stuff, with intent, and give the longest sanction here.

Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Assuming it's the same UT guy, guess he didn't in fact get DQ'd..

https://www.usacycling.org/results/?permit=2016-63
there have not been any DQs....yet. it's not the guy from UT (#2)) -- he's a buddy and was happily tested.

not sure how long it takes USADA to act when it's a missed test.

i won't even bother to type the excuse this guy gave his team as it is lame and it might give someone else and idea about skipping a test.
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Old 07-28-16, 02:08 PM
  #1255  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
yes. i mistyped earlier. there should be a sanction. not sure of severity.

it is lame to do what he did and implies guilt, and yet i am sure there will be some people who think "gee, i've left after a race before without checking to see if i was called to test; i can see how an honest mistake could occur."

however, in this case (a) the announcement was VERY prominent, (b) #2 in the race was tested and knew to check & report immediately (as did all the rest of us), and (c) the guy didn't collect his prize money (which was about $500) + didn't start the 1/2/3 race for which he'd paid.

all of that will be forgotten, though, and i'm sure some folks will still give him the benefit of the doubt.



well, something tells me we won't see him for a while.

i think a 1-time missed test should be a significant sanction, not just on a record. reason? it is SO DAMN RARE for an amateur to get called for testing, so when you miss it it's a big deal. most amateurs i know who manage to get tested are actually PROUD of that fact. it's telling when someone runs and hides.

i think they should assume he was on the worst possible stuff, with intent, and give the longest sanction here.



there have not been any DQs....yet. it's not the guy from UT (#2)) -- he's a buddy and was happily tested.

not sure how long it takes USADA to act when it's a missed test.

i won't even bother to type the excuse this guy gave his team as it is lame and it might give someone else and idea about skipping a test.

Totally true. At chico this year we were told there would be testing in the 3's and those of us on the podium were thrilled. We hung around for a good amount of time only to be told to get the heck out of there because the testing was only for the P1 field.
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Old 07-28-16, 02:12 PM
  #1256  
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There were times this year where there was testing, but I forgot to check whether I was called. It happens, especially when one is newer to the big races where USADA is more likely to be present. I think my point is that since it's SO RARE for an amateur to be tested, that makes it more likely for them to miss it. Don't you think?

This case is so different though. Skipping the podium, the payout, and the next race...SUPER shifty and for me I'm confident he was doping.
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Old 07-28-16, 03:49 PM
  #1257  
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Not really. The races I've been out where USADA was present there were numerous announcements to say that you were required to check after the race.

Bottom line is if there is a desire for there to be testing, the protocol has to be followed. It's like refusing a DUI test. If you skip a test and are using, you get a free spin if you get to just do a mia cupla.

Unless I'm missing something USADA just doesn't turn up at the homes of amateurs unannounced. You'd be inviting a whereabouts chain that would be financially daunting for USADA and absurd for the overwhelming majority of people.

This very thing happened in NJ two years ago. Testing at the state crit. Guy left during the (non championship) masters race. He was selected to be tested. And he was suspended. Internet arguments ensued...nice guy. good guy. totally clean. And yet he left, despite clearly stated instructions, and people trying to chase him down to stay. Claimed a flat, and that he left. Was he doping? No way to know. But I'm not sure who or how one would arrange the have USADA follow him around until they tested him. Besides the fact that there's a post race protocol for a racer not being out of sight of the chaperone for solid reasons.

It's complicated. And probably illustrative why the whole thing is silly and testing should be reserved for pros. But you can't have it both ways. If there's testing, it has to follow protocols, and penalties have to adhere to the standards.
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Old 07-28-16, 03:50 PM
  #1258  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
I don't really know, but from what I understand there's a BIG difference between a pro/1 NCC crit and just about any p/1/2 race, even a "big" local crit like San Rafael.

Last year it was on a national crit calendar (but not "NCC", i.e. no $20k prize purse), and it was fast but not crazy fast.

Pro/1 NCC races don't F around (again from what I hear); guys are taking super crazy risks because a) it's their job b) LOTS of money on the line and c) better to tell your race director you got crashed out than finished 30th.

The Pro/1 NCC races are usually at least half pros in the field, whereas San Rafael will probably have 5-10 at most, with no big pro team representation. San Rafael has lots of money for a local crit ($2k?), but not the NCC-level of cash on the line.

Anyway it's a fun race, mostly bc it's at night! And the backside is barely lit, which is extra exciting.
@hack a better way to put it: SRT will avg maybe 27 mph at most; NCC p/1 crits are probably closer to 30.
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Old 07-28-16, 04:01 PM
  #1259  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
@hack a better way to put it: SRT will avg maybe 27 mph at most; NCC p/1 crits are probably closer to 30.
Interesting ... looking at some team stravas from the Cascade crit:

P1: 29.6 mph
2: 28.6 mph
35+: 26.9


granted avg speed is a Fredly/41 metric, it is a pretty big gap.
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Old 07-28-16, 04:32 PM
  #1260  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
They tested a slew of races/fields locally this year.
really? i've been at just about every race and haven't heard anything about testing.
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Old 07-28-16, 05:29 PM
  #1261  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
a missed test = a positive. the guy gave his team a lame excuse; he got booted from the team. still, it casts some (further) doubt on the sport.

i have to say that i have been on a bunch of starting lines this year (eg Gila 1/2) where they announced USADA is testing, then when you show up at the finish line they inform us that our field is not being tested.

other than nationals, this is the first race that i saw this year where testing occurred outside of a p1 field. i'm all for more testing.
who was this?
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Old 07-28-16, 05:38 PM
  #1262  
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Originally Posted by hack View Post
Interesting ... looking at some team stravas from the Cascade crit:

P1: 29.6 mph
2: 28.6 mph
35+: 26.9


granted avg speed is a Fredly/41 metric, it is a pretty big gap.
check time of day/temp/wind when looking at that stuff, too.

I drove a 3-man break at nats RR last year for 45 miles at 27.5mph because of altitude and heat. I am not 27.5mph fast.
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Old 07-28-16, 05:52 PM
  #1263  
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Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
really? i've been at just about every race and haven't heard anything about testing.
Apparently bumble-bee-turned-hulk got tested. Nutmeg I think there was testing - that's where I'd have the best chance of being tested. White Plains? Tokeneke has had testing at least once, I think only P12 got tested, it was when I worked it. I think one more but it escapes me.
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Old 07-28-16, 05:54 PM
  #1264  
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Originally Posted by hack View Post
Totally true. At chico this year we were told there would be testing in the 3's and those of us on the podium were thrilled. We hung around for a good amount of time only to be told to get the heck out of there because the testing was only for the P1 field.
I'd have raced my heart out to try and get a "tested" position.

I literally cannot think of a higher motivator for me to do well in a race. The only thing more motivating would be if it were for a Series/overall win. I generally don't race because I feel the need to win, I race to try and do as well as I can. But if top 3 were tested I'd race super extra hard.
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Old 07-29-16, 12:51 AM
  #1265  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
who was this?
you know, the funny thing is that since there hasn't been any official announcement or sanction, and while everything that happened looks really damning, i just don't feel comfortable posting a name online. i tend not to post real names online in any context--i leave that up to the actual person.

and yet i feel these kinds of antics SHOULD lead to public shaming.

i guess with a missed test there is always a glimmer of hope, even with a skeptic like me.

kind of weird, huh?

there's enough info in this thread that someone interested could figure it out with a bit of work.
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Old 07-29-16, 12:53 AM
  #1266  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
check time of day/temp/wind when looking at that stuff, too.

I drove a 3-man break at nats RR last year for 45 miles at 27.5mph because of altitude and heat. I am not 27.5mph fast.
point taken, but his example is for 3 races held at the same venue, 3h apart.

temps were pretty similar for 35+ and 2s...and a bit lower for the professionals (dusk).
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Old 07-29-16, 03:41 AM
  #1267  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
Tokeneke has had testing at least once, I think only P12 got tested, it was when I worked it.
I remember that year. I believe it was the race before last. I was nowhere near contention and a whole slew of us crowded the judge's table with questions of "Are we gonna get tested!?" It would have been the biggest "win" after being demolished.
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Old 07-29-16, 08:04 AM
  #1268  
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Originally Posted by canuckbelle View Post
There were times this year where there was testing, but I forgot to check whether I was called. It happens, especially when one is newer to the big races where USADA is more likely to be present. I think my point is that since it's SO RARE for an amateur to be tested, that makes it more likely for them to miss it. Don't you think?
I disagree. I think it's so rare, that when it happens, it's seems like such a big deal that I most certainly would remember to check to see if my number was called.

In fact, when I raced Masters Nationals this year, I made sure to check after the RR and Crit.
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Old 07-29-16, 08:44 AM
  #1269  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
oh, man....wtf.....my fault. missed test = sanction / positive.
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Old 07-29-16, 08:48 AM
  #1270  
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USADA tested at White Plains.

I think it would be cool if you could request to be tested after a race.
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Old 07-29-16, 09:19 AM
  #1271  
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I'd rather not be tested. In the military I was tested about 10 times and every time I had to wait there for an hour drinking jugs of water. Quite a few people popped; especially after a vacation or overseas.
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Old 07-29-16, 10:11 AM
  #1272  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
USADA tested at White Plains.

I think it would be cool if you could request to be tested after a race.


To what end? First it's cost prohibitive. But that aside passing a test doesn't prove anyone is clean. We've been through that saga already. Pros and Olympians pass all the time. Cripes Meeker must have been tested some time before he failed.
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Old 07-29-16, 10:27 AM
  #1273  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
To what end? First it's cost prohibitive. But that aside passing a test doesn't prove anyone is clean. We've been through that saga already. Pros and Olympians pass all the time. Cripes Meeker must have been tested some time before he failed.
Last weekend I heard a world champ question the authenticity of a win by a national champ. there's no trust, even among the ranks. guys who are really really exceptional look at other guys who are really really exceptional and think "dirty".

there's a local ex-pro here who was on rock racing when it was busted that everyone assumes is dirty but I've had extended conversations with him where he talked about how ****ty he felt when everyone was assuming he was dirty and it's part of why he doesn't race anymore. I _still_ don't know if I believe he's clean.
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Old 07-29-16, 10:28 AM
  #1274  
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It would just be cool! And I can totally brag to my gf that someone else saw my dangle and she can't get upset because SPORTS.
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Old 07-29-16, 11:38 AM
  #1275  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
Last weekend I heard a world champ question the authenticity of a win by a national champ. there's no trust, even among the ranks. guys who are really really exceptional look at other guys who are really really exceptional and think "dirty".

there's a local ex-pro here who was on rock racing when it was busted that everyone assumes is dirty but I've had extended conversations with him where he talked about how ****ty he felt when everyone was assuming he was dirty and it's part of why he doesn't race anymore. I _still_ don't know if I believe he's clean.
I regularly race against guys who tested positive. I'm fighting out a series now with a guy who was a pro and got popped. Now, years later, he's back and racing masters. Hard to trust people if you really consider it. And again, the pros and many amateurs have demonstrated that you can dope smart and pass tests. So honestly I remain in the 'why bother camp.' Target guys based on tips. Chase supply lines. Maybe one time test every single person who shows up for nationals.
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