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Disc brakes in road racing

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Old 01-07-16, 10:35 PM
  #26  
ErichVonCartman
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Don't know much about disc brakes. Our rim brakes have no such issues. They don't fade, don't heat, don't lock and stop very well in the rain.
Same have been said by some when Disc for Mtn Bikes first came out. The rims do wear, and grime will eat them up faster.. and fading is a real issue... and modulation is much better on disc brakes.

However, I do admit, I don't see much advantage of going to Disc for Pro teams, because for Road Bikes, how much stopping power do you need? Also pros don't worry about wearing out rims.

I am sure we will only see Discs in the Pro Peleton when the weather gets nasty and the roads get muddy, otherwise they will stick to calipers.

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Old 01-07-16, 11:43 PM
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I have never met a road racer that thinks their rim brakes don't stop well enough - regardless of rim material.
I ran rim brakes on a tandem for years with a NC (male) partner. We never had issues stopping. I guess stopping was just something we just didn't want to do.
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Old 01-07-16, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by ErichVonCartman View Post
...I am sure we will only see Discs in the Pro Peleton when the weather gets nasty and the roads get muddy, otherwise they will stick to calipers.
Two fleets of bikes? Twice as many wheels to glue up? We will be hearing from the mechanics!

Ben
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Old 01-08-16, 12:03 AM
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Good to hear.
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Old 01-08-16, 12:03 AM
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ErichVonCartman
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I have never met a road racer that thinks their rim brakes don't stop well enough - regardless of rim material.
I ran rim brakes on a tandem for years with a NC (male) partner. We never had issues stopping. I guess stopping was just something we just didn't want to do.

Since post #1 here, I have said I don't really see a need for it in Road Racing most of the time...

Like I said, you will not know rim brakes have a problem until....
1) you go down very LONG and STEEP descents where there are tight turns that causes you to be on the brakes a lot. Being on the brakes for 20 minutes or more will cause the rim and brake pads to heat up, this is where you will discover the brake fade.
2) the road is wet and muddy. Rim Brakes just do not stop when they get wet and gunk up with mud... meanwhile a disc brake does not give 2 cents about wet or mud, they will still stop.

Also, keep in mind, Road Racers tend to be about 150 lbs, not much needed to stop 150 lbs. Weight and braking is exponential, and the heavier you are, the more you will exponentially work your brakes.

I will say again, I really don't see a need for Disc Brakes on Road Bikes for the Pros... I only see a need for disc brakes for myself.
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Old 01-08-16, 12:06 AM
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ErichVonCartman
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Two fleets of bikes? Twice as many wheels to glue up? We will be hearing from the mechanics!

Ben
and that means we will need another cargo truck driver too!
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Old 01-08-16, 12:16 AM
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spectastic
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mechanical disc brakes would be nice.. they would be compatible with older shifters.
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Old 01-08-16, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ErichVonCartman View Post
...
Also, keep in mind, Road Racers tend to be about 150 lbs, not much needed to stop 150 lbs. Weight and braking is exponential, and the heavier you are, the more you will exponentially work your brakes.
...
Tandem was 350-500 (depending on partner) and raced in mountain stage races in the rain in Oregon.
You are suggesting an issue where there is none.
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Old 01-08-16, 12:34 AM
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ErichVonCartman
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Tandem was 350-500 (depending on partner) and raced in mountain stage races in the rain in Oregon.
You are suggesting an issue where there is none.

The issue will NEVER exist if you never encounter it. A man raised in the Outback will never need a parka because he has never been put in a situation that needs a parka.

when you raced tandems... the descent must have been short, or you had long breaks in between each descent to cool down the rims and the pads to discover brake fade... and you did not race in mud.

Muddy rims do NOT stop.. and Brake Fade is a real phenomena... just because you have never been put in these situations does not mean they do NOT exist.

I love this discussion! so please discuss...
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Old 01-08-16, 01:31 AM
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all the decent tandems these days are built with 180 disc rotors in the front... for good reason
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Old 01-08-16, 01:48 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
all the decent tandems these days are built with 180 disc rotors in the front... for good reason
LOL... not a good reason if you ride on the flats!
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Old 01-08-16, 04:40 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
I can already lock up both wheels with my supposedly inferior rim brakes. The limiting factor in stopping is the tires against the road, not the pads against the rim. This is a solution for a problem I don't have.
It's not about being able to lock up the wheels. It's about how fast you can convert kinetic energy into heat without locking up.

I've got 1 disc brake bike and 2 rim brake bikes at the moment. There is no question in my mind that I can stop the disc brake bike in a much shorter distance - it is a glaring obvious difference.
However, under any normal circumstances that difference doesn't matter. I will not be switching to a disc brake tri bike any time soon.
When I'm commuting and have to deal with unpredictable traffic, particularly with a heavy bike and extra cargo, I do like having the ability to make those instant slam stops.
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Old 01-08-16, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I have never met a road racer that thinks their rim brakes don't stop well enough - regardless of rim material.
I ran rim brakes on a tandem for years with a NC (male) partner. We never had issues stopping. I guess stopping was just something we just didn't want to do.
That was kind of my point. The original post was about racing, and despite being a disc believer in non-racing circumstances, I can't see how you'd need them for racing.

Then again, I don't know much about bike racing. My dad was in the auto racing business for years, and being able to out-brake the other guy was a HUGE deal - any time there is a slow corner, the guy with the better braking can stay on the gas that much longer and still be able to slow down in time for the corner, and thus pass anyone who had to start braking sooner. I've never seen that kind of situation in bike racing - does it happen?
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Old 01-08-16, 04:55 AM
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No. In cycling any braking is wasted energy

People do bomb corners but that has nothing to do with braking power
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Old 01-08-16, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
No. In cycling any braking is wasted energy
That would theoretically be true in auto racing as well, but in auto racing there are some corners that you physically cannot take at full speed - you have to slow down to make the turn, or you will crash.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:24 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I have never met a road racer that thinks their rim brakes don't stop well enough - regardless of rim material.
I ran rim brakes on a tandem for years with a NC (male) partner. We never had issues stopping. I guess stopping was just something we just didn't want to do.
My rim brakes (on carbon wheels) are god awful compared to discs when it's raining.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:33 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Don't know much about disc brakes. Our rim brakes have no such issues. They don't fade, don't heat, don't lock and stop very well in the rain.
I don't know what you're talking about, man. Rim brakes absolutely do fade and do heat. They fade because of the heat. There's been some confusion because there's been a lot of FUD generated over a type of brake fade specific to hydraulics. Namely, boiling fluid causing a loss of braking power. This problem has received a lot of attention in road hydro design precisely because it can be so catastrophic, and reports are that it seems to be totally solved. The more mundane variety of brake fade, which is pad glazing from excess heat, is a bigger problem for rim brakes than disc brakes because the pads undergo chemical changes at a much lower temperature. This is particularly true with carbon rims, where the pads are the primary heat dissipation surface.

As for the general question of disc brakes in road racing, I really am of two minds. Hydraulic disc brakes are absolutely superior, as brakes, to rim brakes. It's not even close. They should and will become standard on bikes not strictly aimed at road racing. No question. Whether the trade-offs in weight and (possibly) aerodynamics make them less ideal for a pure race bike, I'm not sure yet. They will definitely be present in your races, though - I've seen them already. There is the possibility that rim brakes become a cultural symbol for road racers, in the way shaved legs, shoes and helmets used to be.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
People do bomb corners but that has nothing to do with braking power
Bet you $20 you have a lot of work to do on your cornering ability, with a silly sentence like that.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:42 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I have never met a road racer that thinks their rim brakes don't stop well enough - regardless of rim material.
Too many replies already, but I have to raise my hand on this one. Hi. Hi. I'm a road racer, and wet carbon rims absolutely do not stop well enough. They suck. They've gotten better, but they still suck.

Even if they did stop well enough, the flaw in this argument is that we shouldn't bother with something better because what we have is good enough. That really belies the fact of technological progress in the first place. I bet you thought your single pivots were adequate in 1985, when nothing better existed. Dual pivot brakes were much heavier, too. In retrospect, that would seem silly now. The first dual pivots were an improvement, but they were only the start. It was difficult to understand just how much better the new technology was based on where it was at the time. Don't turn your nose up at progress.

Again, whether discs are currently worth the trade-offs, I'm not 100% sure. But they are way better, and only going to improve.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:54 AM
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My concern with that sort of situation (wet braking) has been that it's kind of like allowing a handful of riders in a track event to use brakes...what happens to the guys without brakes when they're used?
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Old 01-08-16, 10:00 AM
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That situation already exists. You've got dudes on carbon rims and dudes on aluminum. This scenario doesn't concern me.
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Old 01-08-16, 10:01 AM
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Maybe not, it's basically the only objection I can think of though.
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Old 01-08-16, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I have never met a road racer that thinks their rim brakes don't stop well enough - regardless of rim material.
...
Well now I have (yes I am quoting myself): Stopping progress? Pro cyclists weigh in on the disc-brake debate - VeloNews.com
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Old 01-08-16, 10:04 AM
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You have that situation now (mixed braking ability). Ever race a rainy crit where half the guys are on aluminum wheels and half on carbon? Or any cross race, where half the field has no brakes at all by the finish.
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Old 01-08-16, 10:05 AM
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Maybe make it based on your age you have to use discs.
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