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Disc brakes in road racing

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Old 01-08-16, 10:19 AM
  #51  
ErichVonCartman
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Maybe make it based on your age you have to use discs.

and what age is that?

I myself was thinking leave it up to the individual. If you don't feel like you need disc, then don't buy them. If you feel you need them, then buy them.

Or we can be like Doge and tell other people what they need.
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Old 01-08-16, 10:20 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
You have that situation now (mixed braking ability). Ever race a rainy crit where half the guys are on aluminum wheels and half on carbon? Or any cross race, where half the field has no brakes at all by the finish.
To be fair, I think cross is a different beast. Discs seem to already be on the majority of bikes, at least around here.
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Old 01-08-16, 10:53 AM
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Doge V Erichvoncartman...Grolby waiting to get in.



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Old 01-08-16, 11:33 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Maybe make it based on your age you have to use discs.
Good idea. We can require juniors to use disc brakes and smaller gears.
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Old 01-08-16, 11:36 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by ErichVonCartman View Post
and what age is that?

I myself was thinking leave it up to the individual. If you don't feel like you need disc, then don't buy them. If you feel you need them, then buy them.

Or we can be like Doge and tell other people what they need.


Doge was joking.

Signed, Doge's interpreter.
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Old 01-08-16, 12:24 PM
  #56  
ErichVonCartman
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
Doge was joking.

Signed, Doge's interpreter.

I KNOW! and I was doing reverse sarcasm... because sarcasm with sarcasm is NO fun
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Old 01-08-16, 01:30 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Doge V Erichvoncartman...Grolby waiting to get in.



I look so worried!
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Old 01-08-16, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
I look so worried!

Probably because of the infected tattoo thing.
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Old 01-08-16, 02:17 PM
  #59  
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First standardized adoption of some type of Thru Axle
Then increase pad clearance
Then finally we could see some actual large scale adoption (Hint: Don't do what Specialized did)

Right now I think there are too many issues and too much added complexity for road discs to be worth it. Changing wheels is a PITA, making sure the rotors don't rub is even more of a PITA. Then just go and try to bleed your brakes the night before a race, or better yet, in between stage race days.

Honestly discs are something that, to me, look good on paper.There are definitely cases where it would be nice to have a disc-brake road bike, things like Battenkill in the Northeast, or related "messy" races. But for everyday use and most racing they are just not worth it because the cases where you would actually benefit from having a disc are few enough to not make it worth while to ride them all the time.
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Old 01-08-16, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Bet you $20 you have a lot of work to do on your cornering ability, with a silly sentence like that.
how about instead of making bets, you tell me whats so silly about what i said?
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Old 01-08-16, 03:51 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
First standardized adoption of some type of Thru Axle
Then increase pad clearance
Then finally we could see some actual large scale adoption (Hint: Don't do what Specialized did)

Right now I think there are too many issues and too much added complexity for road discs to be worth it. Changing wheels is a PITA, making sure the rotors don't rub is even more of a PITA. Then just go and try to bleed your brakes the night before a race, or better yet, in between stage race days.

Honestly discs are something that, to me, look good on paper.There are definitely cases where it would be nice to have a disc-brake road bike, things like Battenkill in the Northeast, or related "messy" races. But for everyday use and most racing they are just not worth it because the cases where you would actually benefit from having a disc are few enough to not make it worth while to ride them all the time.
Not sure I agree with any of that.

Hydraulic brake bleeding is a piece of cake. Takes 10min per wheel, and I don't do it particularly often.

Also, thru axles aren't any slower than QRs; I'd argue they are probably faster. And, rotor rub with a thru axle only occurs if something physically bends the rotor. Like, a large rock, a log, etc. Looking at the geometry of my 160mm rotor, a disc wheel + tire, and the fork, the only way a rotor would make contact with any foreign object besides a brake pad is if the rider crashed unto an object that protruded from the ground. Meaning, there is a clear "line of sight" between the rotor and the outside of the lever. With 140mm rotors, you'd have even more clearance.
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Old 01-08-16, 03:55 PM
  #62  
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Well it has been taken up by Marketing .. you can make your own shopping choices .

or maybe you have to wait for someone else to post a revue first.
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Old 01-08-16, 04:11 PM
  #63  
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"revue"
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Old 01-08-16, 06:47 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by ErichVonCartman View Post
...
Or we can be like Doge and tell other people what they need.
That has been the role of the Doge for a few hundred years.
You may not be aware USAC limits equipment based on age. I figured one more thing wouldn't hurt.

Anyway competition authorities normally limit equipment that can be used in an event.
UCI limits - on purpose - things that cause the bike to vary too much for their liking. Many times, "better" things.

Last edited by Doge; 01-08-16 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 01-08-16, 06:57 PM
  #65  
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How are discs handled by neutral support? I really don't know. Can SRAM and Shimano slap their discs on any rider who have a mechanical?
I know the pedals are an issue.
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Old 01-08-16, 06:59 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
how about instead of making bets, you tell me whats so silly about what i said?
Better brakes and better braking and cornering skill = faster cornering. Period. It's not as dominant a factor as it is in motorsport, most of the time, but being able to brake later and harder makes you faster. Rider skill predominates, but better equipment makes it easier. "Braking is a waste of energy" is very naive. There are corners that don't require braking, yes, but there are more that do. And the guys who are flying around them aren't not braking. They're braking better.
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Old 01-08-16, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Better brakes and better braking and cornering skill = faster cornering. Period. It's not as dominant a factor as it is in motorsport, most of the time, but being able to brake later and harder makes you faster. Rider skill predominates, but better equipment makes it easier. "Braking is a waste of energy" is very naive. There are corners that don't require braking, yes, but there are more that do. And the guys who are flying around them aren't not braking. They're braking better.
unless you're passing someone (eg. bombing a corner), you can only really brake about as good as the guys in front of you. so unless you're in a solo breakaway, your point is moot. and the speed at which you fly around a corner has little to do with how well you brake. you can brake early or brake late, you can get the same cornering speed regardless..
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Old 01-08-16, 08:37 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
you can brake early or brake late, you can get the same cornering speed regardless..
This is dead wrong, but never mind. You clearly don't feel you have anything to learn.
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Old 01-08-16, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
This is dead wrong, but never mind. You clearly don't feel you have anything to learn.
i know, it sucks, because you're such a great teacher. would you mind explaining how braking late somehow leads to faster cornering?
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Old 01-08-16, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
i know, it sucks, because you're such a great teacher. would you mind explaining how braking late somehow leads to faster cornering?
Sure. The earlier you brake, the lower your average speed through the corner. That's it. If you need an extreme case to picture it, imagine a turn where the max speed you can hold through the apex is 18 mph. Now, you could brake 100 yards before the turn and just do 18 mph all the way to and through the turn. Or you could wait and keep riding at 25 mph (or whatever) until you're almost to the turn, then brake down to 18 mph and go through the turn. Over the total distance, braking when you get close to the turn is clearly faster. Braking early in a more normal sense (near the turn) is slower in the exact same way, for the exact same reason, just over a shorter distance than that example.

As for everything else, cornering is a skill and a tool in your arsenal and it's unwise to dismiss it just because it isn't a silver bullet. Good cornering can be used to gain position, save energy, or help establish a gap. To be clear of course ability makes way more of a difference than equipment, like calipers vs discs, but better equipment makes the job easier. Maybe discs have enough of an aero penalty to negate the braking advantage, but in the specific context of braking, they're better.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Or you could wait and keep riding at 25 mph (or whatever) until you're almost to the turn, then brake down to 18 mph and go through the turn

[edit] I posted some stuff generally disagreeing with this, but on second thought, I don't really want to get into a discussion about braking and cornering, because this has all the hallmarks of a thread that is about to go off the rails.

Last edited by globecanvas; 01-08-16 at 09:42 PM.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:45 PM
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Here? Never. Seriously, yeah. Hence my trying to bring it back to disc brakes a bit in the next paragraph. Sorry about taking this off-topic.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by grolby View Post
Sure. The earlier you brake, the lower your average speed through the corner. That's it. If you need an extreme case to picture it, imagine a turn where the max speed you can hold through the apex is 18 mph. Now, you could brake 100 yards before the turn and just do 18 mph all the way to and through the turn. Or you could wait and keep riding at 25 mph (or whatever) until you're almost to the turn, then brake down to 18 mph and go through the turn. Over the total distance, braking when you get close to the turn is clearly faster. Braking early in a more normal sense (near the turn) is slower in the exact same way, for the exact same reason, just over a shorter distance than that example.

As for everything else, cornering is a skill and a tool in your arsenal and it's unwise to dismiss it just because it isn't a silver bullet. Good cornering can be used to gain position, save energy, or help establish a gap. To be clear of course ability makes way more of a difference than equipment, like calipers vs discs, but better equipment makes the job easier. Maybe discs have enough of an aero penalty to negate the braking advantage, but in the specific context of braking, they're better.
ok, avg speed, not instantaneous speed. i'm glad we cleared that up. you're not wrong that cornering is a skill, but it's a skill that needs to be synced with intuition in the peloton. if a guy in front doesn't corner well, it doesn't always mean you should overtake him.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:48 PM
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Yeah, exit speed could be identical, but if you're able to brake later to that same exit speed you're coming through that turn faster overall than the other guy.
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Old 01-08-16, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
[edit] I posted some stuff generally disagreeing with this, but on second thought, I don't really want to get into a discussion about braking and cornering, because this has all the hallmarks of a thread that is about to go off the rails.
it would stay on the rails if it had disc brakes
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