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Disc brakes in road racing

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Old 01-08-16, 11:13 PM
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Old 01-09-16, 01:00 AM
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About a year ago I mentioned a cornering technique of slowing in the corner to then create a gap because everyone else had to slow or brake and then the rider could get a gap to sprint.
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
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Old 01-09-16, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
you can brake early or brake late, you can get the same cornering speed regardless..
Wow.

Stunning ignorance.
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Old 01-09-16, 10:37 AM
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Stunning!
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Old 01-09-16, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
About a year ago I mentioned a cornering technique of slowing in the corner to then create a gap because everyone else had to slow or brake and then the rider could get a gap to sprint.
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
no, not safe at all to have the peloton bunch up in a corner in order to stretch it out again. who in their right minds think it's a good idea to brake hard in a peloton? the guys behind you would have to brake harder due to accordion effect, and the same with guys behind them. it's dumb and dangerous

disc brakes have better stopping power, but they also have better modulation. as mentioned, rim brakes have less modulation, hence the reason why I think people perceive them to be easy to lock up. I don't think it will contribute to the problem. I think disc brakes will help.

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Old 01-09-16, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
About a year ago I mentioned a cornering technique of slowing in the corner to then create a gap because everyone else had to slow or brake and then the rider could get a gap to sprint.
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
What "claims" are you referring to?

Increased modulation, particularly when wet, has nothing to do with what I *think* you are talking about.
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Old 01-09-16, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Kent View Post
What "claims" are you referring to?

Increased modulation, particularly when wet, has nothing to do with what I *think* you are talking about.
In this thread. The claim in this thread that rims, particularly in wet don't stop as well. So in a rainy wet day Joe with his discs is slowing to approach a corner with rim brake Mike behind.

Will Joe, slow more than Mike?
If not - what is the problem with rim brakes?
If so - well, is that just racing?

If riders can be trusted to modulate their brakes so those behind them can stop, I wish they'd allow the braked fixies on the track, it would be much easier than getting another bike or removing the brake.
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Old 01-09-16, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
In this thread. The claim in this thread that rims, particularly in wet don't stop as well. So in a rainy wet day Joe with his discs is slowing to approach a corner with rim brake Mike behind.

Will Joe, slow more than Mike?
If not - what is the problem with rim brakes?
If so - well, if that just racing?

If riders can be trusted to modulate their brakes so those behind them can stop, I wish they'd allow the braked fixies on the track, it would be much easier than getting another bike or removing the brake.
wut
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Old 01-09-16, 11:47 AM
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Tracks (StubHub/ADT center Carson) does not allow brakes on the track. Reason they state is this way noone will brake and cause someone without brakes behind to collide with them. They do not trust a rider to simply say they will not use their brakes. They are just not allowed.

In a race...If discs do/can stop better in wet, and there is a rain (wet rims where discs stop better). How will we keep those without discs from colliding into the bikes with stronger brakes?

If disc do not stop better in wet - moot point.
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Old 01-09-16, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Tracks (StubHub/ADT center Carson)
no velodrome anywhere actually


does not allow brakes on the track. Reason they state is this way noone will brake and cause someone without brakes behind to collide with them. They do not trust a rider to simply say they will not use their brakes. They are just not allowed.
correct. have you ever ridden a track bike? they wouldn't be advantageous.


In a race...If discs do/can stop better in wet, and there is a rain (wet rims where discs stop better). How will we keep those without discs from colliding into the bikes with stronger brakes?

If disc do not stop better in wet - moot point.
they're still called races on a velodrome.

the crashing into one another is one of the concerns. in reality, given good brakes vs bad brakes, carbon vs. aluminum, cork vs rubber... you're already dealing with wide ranges of stopping problem.

NONETHELESS

a wide variety of braking abilities does not justify intentional brake checking as a strategy

more over you seem to be trolling, repeatedly resurrecting dead and contentious (sometimes closed) topics. I'd caution you to tread carefully.

Last edited by gsteinb; 01-09-16 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 01-09-16, 01:03 PM
  #86  
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I find it quite humorous when Road Bicyclists talk about speed, cornering, and braking.

Road Bicyclist really knows nothing about cornering and braking at speed. Road Bikes are relatively slow, and they are not really meant to corner at rail, I mean how could you rail when tires are only 23, 25, or 28mm???

You can't really "late brake" with bicycles like you can with motorcycles. What we consider "late braking" for bicycles, is early braking for motorcycles. For motorcycles, real late braking is used only for passing, and it makes you slower (lap wise), because you tend to overshoot the turn and get out of position from the ideal line, so you come on the gas later.
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Old 01-09-16, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Doge V Erichvoncartman...Grolby waiting to get in.

Doge is Good Peoples... unlike some of you here.. He does not get all wound up and get his panties all twisted when we each have different viewpoints from our discussions.
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Old 01-09-16, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ErichVonCartman View Post
I find it quite humorous when Road Bicyclists talk about speed, cornering, and braking.

Road Bicyclist really knows nothing about cornering and braking at speed. Road Bikes are relatively slow, and they are not really meant to corner at rail, I mean how could you rail when tires are only 23, 25, or 28mm???

You can't really "late brake" with bicycles like you can with motorcycles. What we consider "late braking" for bicycles, is early braking for motorcycles. For motorcycles, real late braking is used only for passing, and it makes you slower (lap wise), because you tend to overshoot the turn and get out of position from the ideal line, so you come on the gas later.
have you ever raced a fast crit? because i can assure you that road bikes can most certainly "rail" a corner.
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Old 01-09-16, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
have you ever raced a fast crit? because i can assure you that road bikes can most certainly "rail" a corner.
I never raced slow bikes such as crits before. "Rail" is all relative.
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Old 01-09-16, 01:57 PM
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Man...wish I had caught this back on page 1.

Doesn't matter what anyone thinks - they are here and won't be going anywhere. This is EXACTLY like the transition in cross. I was able to point out how I called that it would all be commonplace in a few years back in the cyclocross magazine interview I did: In The Saddle With Rob Curtis, PSIMET Wheel-Builder - Cyclocross Magazine - Cyclocross News, Races, Bikes, Photos, Videos

Personally I have been charged with building up road disc race wheels for at least 1 team for this season. It's done guys.

In the end it won't change much really it's kind of no different than the slight change in tactics we experienced with integrated shift levers vs downtube shifters. The ability to shift more often and more subtly changed racing a small amount but we all adjusted. Braking with disc will be the same.

As for the brakes on the track...yeah...that would be every velodrome everywhere and thank god they do. Otherwise we'd have piles of hipster messengers grabbing handfuls of brakes when they slide up on someone going into turn 3 at Northbrook and the carnage would be stunning. Kind of the same concept as speeding up on an on-ramp. Helluva lot easier to make small movements when we are all at relatively the same speed in reference to each other.

Fact is there are stunning wrecks when people can't brake now and there will be stunning wrecks when people can brake better. Roadies be hitting the deck....always. People will point at disc int he short term but in the long term it won't make the tiniest difference.
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Old 01-09-16, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
have you ever raced a fast crit? because i can assure you that road bikes can most certainly "rail" a corner.
Originally Posted by ErichVonCartman View Post
I never raced slow bikes such as crits before. "Rail" is all relative.
No it's not. Crit bikes on hella stiff wheels and tubulars can rail corners at speeds that would make most so queasy they'd prefer to sit down. Being not aware of that fact calls directly into question with others whether or not you've ever actually been there so his question is valid.

I remember giving a brand new wheel setup and tire to a great crit dog kid one year down in a super tight crit in Champaign. He won the 1/2/3 race impressively and ended up getting an few invites to Pro NCC races that year on his way to racing pro the following season. He handed the wheels back to me after the race telling me how much he loved how he could stick everything and felt like he put 10-20 feet on those following him at every corner just because of the speed he was carrying. I looked at the tires and the hot patch was completely gone. In 1 race. he spent the majority of that race on the sidewalls.
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Old 01-09-16, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
No it's not. Crit bikes on hella stiff wheels and tubulars can rail corners at speeds that would make most so queasy they'd prefer to sit down. Being not aware of that fact calls directly into question with others whether or not you've ever actually been there so his question is valid.

I remember giving a brand new wheel setup and tire to a great crit dog kid one year down in a super tight crit in Champaign. He won the 1/2/3 race impressively and ended up getting an few invites to Pro NCC races that year on his way to racing pro the following season. He handed the wheels back to me after the race telling me how much he loved how he could stick everything and felt like he put 10-20 feet on those following him at every corner just because of the speed he was carrying. I looked at the tires and the hot patch was completely gone. In 1 race. he spent the majority of that race on the sidewalls.

fast and "railing" is relative. just because you can corner faster than a snail does not mean it's fast compared to other stuff. I was just saying road bicycles don't really rail. Even if the rider uses all the patch on the sidewalls, he is still relatively upright.
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Old 01-09-16, 02:12 PM
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quit while you're not too far behind, buddy.
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Old 01-09-16, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
quit while you're not too far behind, buddy.
Looks like I will go "farther behind" all your guy's reverse logic.

Look if you want to think Road Bicycles rail and are fast, you are free to do so.

To me, Road Bicycles don't rail! and they are not that fast (no matter how "fast" you are "cornering" or how fast you think you are going)


BOOOOOOOOOM! First place.


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Old 01-09-16, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
About a year ago I mentioned a cornering technique of slowing in the corner to then create a gap because everyone else had to slow or brake and then the rider could get a gap to sprint.
It was considered dangerous by most.
Wouldn't the result be the same disc riders mixed with rim riders if all the claims are correct ?
This is the type of ignorance and ******** thinking (as in backwards, not referring to our mentally different people out there) that gets people hurt
keep that up in a race and someones going to put you into the weeds before you take down half the field
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Old 01-09-16, 02:30 PM
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Depending on the road, about 45 -55degrees. Thats good for tires about an inch wide

sportbike is about 65 degrees but who the f cares about motorcycles in this discussion
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Old 01-09-16, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post
Depending on the road, about 45 -55degrees. Thats good for tires about an inch wide

sportbike is about 65 degrees but who the f cares about motorcycles in this discussion
The cycling world is full of guys who walked away from motorcycle racing of all forms. This guy isn't unique. Agreed though...it's like showing off a snowblower in a motorcycle forum. I mean...they both have engines, right?
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Old 01-09-16, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by cruiserhead View Post
This is the type of ignorance and ******** thinking (as in backwards, not referring to our mentally different people out there) that gets people hurt
keep that up in a race and someones going to put you into the weeds before you take down half the field
Glad you agree it is potentially dangerous to slow in a way others have to brake behind you. The danger is based on the ability of the rider behind to stop. It has nothing to do with the intent of the rider in front. So if the front rider has better brakes and uses them - the result is the same.
This argument is not mine. It is one of the reasons there is concern about mixing braking types. I'd rather they just not have road races through mud and then there wouldn't be much of an issue.
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Old 01-09-16, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
correct. have you ever ridden a track bike? they wouldn't be advantageous.


the crashing into one another is one of the concerns. in reality, given good brakes vs bad brakes, carbon vs. aluminum, cork vs rubber... you're already dealing with wide ranges of stopping problem.
Yes I have ridden and raced on track/s.

I think there is more agreement here than you think. The equipment should be so competitors can compete equally. I do not think racing needs the latest equipment, or the best or the lightest and certainly nothing experimental that could introduce new dangers. For those reasons and the support ones, I don't like discs being entered into racing.
I apologize for that.
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Old 01-09-16, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
No it's not. Crit bikes on hella stiff wheels and tubulars can rail corners at speeds that would make most so queasy they'd prefer to sit down. Being not aware of that fact calls directly into question with others whether or not you've ever actually been there so his question is valid.

I remember giving a brand new wheel setup and tire to a great crit dog kid one year down in a super tight crit in Champaign. He won the 1/2/3 race impressively and ended up getting an few invites to Pro NCC races that year on his way to racing pro the following season. He handed the wheels back to me after the race telling me how much he loved how he could stick everything and felt like he put 10-20 feet on those following him at every corner just because of the speed he was carrying. I looked at the tires and the hot patch was completely gone. In 1 race. he spent the majority of that race on the sidewalls.
off topic question, but I imagine you can't do that with clincher tires? you'd have to drop the psi significantly to be able to stick like that. I feel like it won't work with clinchers

Last edited by spectastic; 01-09-16 at 05:28 PM.
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