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Disc brakes in road racing

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Old 09-09-16, 07:39 PM
  #126  
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Pretty certain like 90% of Tandem riders can descent South Lake with no issue, stuff like Ebbett's or Horseshoe Meadows probably more troublesome. I've only seen 1 tandem blow a rim from heat and it was descending Bohlman (like 3 miles of 10+%) in Saratoga. They are the ones that got a disc tandem shortly thereafter.
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Old 09-10-16, 05:20 PM
  #127  
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I've had 4 tandems. Dwan pre-Commotion built me his 1st tandem - and others. My wife and I did the Duet tandem stage race for our honeymoon. I think I averaged about 150/week on them for about 5 years. I had always used calipers, but as mentioned, don't brake a lot. I also did my own pads and glued them with Epoxylite 6203 stuff I found at work. Once mid-80s the rim brake surfaces asploaded off a Mavic SUP ceramic rear. That likely from 150PSI and brake wear. I generally just used tubulars and didn't have that issue other than at the bottom of a 20% grade with corners (stayed up) no other issues. I certainly would not ride San Fransisco without a disc, but most roads are fine without a disc. If I had a new tandem built again, I'd get a disc. They are much better now.
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Old 09-12-16, 05:17 AM
  #128  
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All this tandem talk is killing me. I want a road tandem (of the 12 bikes we own, we have only a cruiser 26" wheel tandem). It's the perfect candidate for di2 or etap.
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Old 10-02-16, 08:34 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by Harlan View Post
All this tandem talk is killing me. I want a road tandem (of the 12 bikes we own, we have only a cruiser 26" wheel tandem). It's the perfect candidate for di2 or etap.
Yup. Tandems are subject to cable flex - or frame flex and auto shift. They are stiffer now, but still flex. I went to the Mavic Mectronic in the 90s. I used that RD for my son through age 15 for TTs. Electronic is perfect for tandems although have not used the eTap.
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Old 03-24-18, 01:53 AM
  #130  
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a year and half later, I felt the urge to revive this thread. It appears that the manufacturers are moving towards disc brake road bikes. most top end bike lines have a disc brake version now. there are a couple of lines that are going to exclusively disc brakes (giant propel, venge vias, maybe more?)

the standard appears to be converging to 140 mm rotors, and 12 mm thru axles. Personally, I think this is going to be a trend that's as impactful as the introduction of threadless stems from quill stems.

thoughts?
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Old 03-24-18, 05:41 AM
  #131  
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My next road race bike will have discs because it's the way the industry is moving. I've been caught behind trends before and it sucks having to buy all new stuff. Gone will be the days of wearing out rims in the winter and ****ty carbon braking in the rain.

The cool thing is once I upgrade all my bikes (except tt, different story) will have the same type of wheels. Could in theory race the same set of rims for cross mtn and road.

Id probably have already ordered my new road bike if I wouldn't have started hearing some murmuring about sram launching something new soon. Probably gonna be sea otter, but how can I know?

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Old 03-24-18, 05:54 AM
  #132  
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I think it's going that way, but I just got a new road bike and opted for rim brake because of being so heavily invested in that technology. That and when I ordered my frame the disc version wasn't available yet but I probably still would have gone rim. I do think my next one will probably be disc.
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Old 03-24-18, 11:48 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
a year and half later, I felt the urge to revive this thread. It appears that the manufacturers are moving towards disc brake road bikes. most top end bike lines have a disc brake version now. there are a couple of lines that are going to exclusively disc brakes (giant propel, venge vias, maybe more?)

the standard appears to be converging to 140 mm rotors, and 12 mm thru axles. Personally, I think this is going to be a trend that's as impactful as the introduction of threadless stems from quill stems.

thoughts?
Define impactful in your context here.

I agree that disc brakes will change a lot of what I do as a mechanic, sponsor, manager, and coach. I feel like the fear of the impending "knives of whirring death" mentality of them in a crit will dissipate over time.

I am not a fan of them. i don't believe we need them at all on the road save for a few specific applications and yet I just got a new frame for myself and i didn't have the option of NOT having them. so......that has been decided for us.
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Old 03-24-18, 12:00 PM
  #134  
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Well we rarely see good road bikes with quill stems these days. I think thatíll be the case with rim brake bikes 5-10 years from now. Thereís been a few major innovations in bike technology like improvement from square taper Bb, improvement from quill stems, and now disc brakes, which provide some clear advantages not just with braking performance, but tire clearance, rim weight, aerodynamics, versatility (Put wide tires on road bike you got gravel bike), no rim wear (use race wheels on training rides). Itís impactful in that changing one aspect on the bike is opening up all these other doors

Iím holding off on getting carbon rim brakes until I get one of those disc road bikes too.
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Old 03-24-18, 01:59 PM
  #135  
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My rant: I think it's the biggest crock of ****. I can't stand an industry forcing consumers to upgrade EVERYTHING for something that is completely not necessary (for the majority). Choices are great; this will not be a choice in another year or two (or three), I fear.

So I'm sure at some point in the next 5-6 years I'll get a disc brake bike, and then have to get new disc brake wheels and all that crap. And I'm irritated just thinking about it.

Maybe I'll have found a new, cheaper hobby by then...

I don't think those arguments hold up at all. Braking performance? I've never had an issue stopping or slowing (I don't race down mountains in the rain, though, so I'll concede that one except for the rebuttal that tire grip is far more of a concern for me on anything high speed and technical). As for the rest: Rim wear? Never worn through a rim. Wider tires? I have no gravel roads. 25mm is still enormous and way more than enough. Also have plenty of clearance for that plus a bit more. Aero? It's less aero. It's also heavier. And it's sure as hell not versatile when all my other wheels are rim!

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Old 03-24-18, 02:53 PM
  #136  
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I just made the switch. I've just ordered a disc brake road bike and am selling off my rim brake wheels (have a 80mm CC for sale still). After spending most of the winter riding my disc brake CX on the road, plus wanting an excuse to get a different road bike, I decided to make the switch. Personally, it's not the tire clearance or the all-out braking power, but the consistent feel when you're scrubbing speed or slowing. There's no grab and modulate that typically seems to come with carbon rims. Plus I found myself using the training wheels less because I didn't feel like swapping brake pads. With disc wheels swaps between race and training rims should be a lot simpler.
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Old 03-24-18, 03:25 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6 View Post
My next road race bike will have discs because it's the way the industry is moving. I've been caught behind trends before and it sucks having to buy all new stuff. Gone will be the days of wearing out rims in the winter and ****ty carbon braking in the rain.

The cool thing is once I upgrade all my bikes (except tt, different story) will have the same type of wheels. Could in theory race the same set of rims for cross mtn and road.
yeah.... it's a great theory. the practice will likely work out different.

i have two CX bikes with multiple sets of wheels from the same manufacturer. pretty simple to swap wheels, right? nope. even with the same exact model hub, the spacing is ever so slightly different -- enough to be an issue with brake rub. i've spent hours with shims and there is no scenario where all wheels will work with both bikes without issue.

i have multiple mountain bikes with wheels that are completely incompatible.

i've ridden bikes for a long time and have never worn out a braking surface (even rim brake MTBs that saw lots of bad conditions), though i know it can happen. i just don't think that is the major motivator for the move -- very few people use stuff until it is no longer good any more.

there's lots of promise, but the reality turns out to be different.
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Old 03-24-18, 03:29 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
Well we rarely see good road bikes with quill stems these days. I think thatíll be the case with rim brake bikes 5-10 years from now. Thereís been a few major innovations in bike technology like improvement from square taper Bb, improvement from quill stems, and now disc brakes, which provide some clear advantages not just with braking performance, but tire clearance, rim weight, aerodynamics, versatility (Put wide tires on road bike you got gravel bike), no rim wear (use race wheels on training rides). Itís impactful in that changing one aspect on the bike is opening up all these other doors
.
some people might argue that these are not all advantages -- at least not universal advantages.

there are those who see square taper as a better solution than "modern" press-fit BBs. (personally i have not had issues with high-end bikes and PF/BB30, but that is not universal.)

wide rims and tires are less aerodynamic at low/no yaw. (even when wheels are designed for wider tires, they still take an aero hit.)

rim wear... really? i can think of many perks of disc brakes (and i own many disc brake-equipped bikes!), but not many people are retiring wheels these days due to worn out brake tracks.

i take your points -- just saying even in the examples you provided not everyone sees it the same way.
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Old 03-24-18, 03:36 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
My rant: I think it's the biggest crock of ****. I can't stand an industry forcing consumers to upgrade EVERYTHING for something that is completely not necessary (for the majority). Choices are great; this will not be a choice in another year or two (or three), I fear.

So I'm sure at some point in the next 5-6 years I'll get a disc brake bike, and then have to get new disc brake wheels and all that crap. And I'm irritated just thinking about it.
+1. currently, many of the "advantages" have offsetting negatives that are downplayed.

unfortunately with racing we'll all have to go where neutral service goes: that has been the motivator for many people to, say, upgrade from perfectly fine 10s to 11s.

this is another case where there will likely be a tipping point where adoption accelerates, then the hold-outs have to match.

i'm still hopeful that there is a chance it won't happen -- mainly because selfishly i have lots of $$ invested in rim brake gear that i would not want to replace, but also because i don't think the benefits are as clear-cut as many people think.

unfortunately, you have people giving advice like "buying a disc bike now will mean you are future-proof," which is simply not true. add that to the industry push and it can seem like the war is over.

there are still many battles to be fought, and disc brakes/hubs certainly (sadly) aren't universal.



Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post


Maybe I'll have found a new, cheaper hobby by then...
odds are that you will. nothing personal.

Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I don't think those arguments hold up at all. Braking performance? I've never had an issue stopping or slowing (I don't race down mountains in the rain, though, so I'll concede that one except for the rebuttal that tire grip is far more of a concern for me on anything high speed and technical). As for the rest: Rim wear? Never worn through a rim. Wider tires? I have no gravel roads. 25mm is still enormous and way more than enough. Also have plenty of clearance for that plus a bit more. Aero? It's less aero. It's also heavier. And it's sure as hell not versatile when all my other wheels are rim!
i usually find that tire contact patch is the biggest factor in braking, and disc brakes don't solve that on the road. i appreciate many things about disc brakes when i ride my CX bike on the road, but it also has larger tires.

in a race, i'm mostly concerned that everyone around me has equal ability (inability) to made sudden movements. when things are uneven is when problems occur.
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Old 03-24-18, 06:02 PM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
Well we rarely see good road bikes with quill stems these days. I think that’ll be the case with rim brake bikes 5-10 years from now. There’s been a few major innovations in bike technology like improvement from square taper Bb, improvement from quill stems, and now disc brakes, which provide some clear advantages not just with braking performance, but tire clearance, rim weight, aerodynamics, versatility (Put wide tires on road bike you got gravel bike), no rim wear (use race wheels on training rides). It’s impactful in that changing one aspect on the bike is opening up all these other doors

I’m holding off on getting carbon rim brakes until I get one of those disc road bikes too.
Discs have design issues calipers don't. And visa versa, but for dry road, the discs have the bigger negatives.
Say you had two bikes:
Bike 1 you put a pin through the fork and rim to stop it.
Bike 2 you locked the hub.

The force on the fork tips on Bike 2 is 2X what it is on Bike 1. On Bike 1 the fork tips take half the stopping force where the other half is at the top of the rim. On Bike 2 the fork tip is the pivot point.

So that is a design issue right there and why disc forks need to be stronger, and in turn heavier and stiffer (in a not so good way - IMO).

The hydro cables have to travel farther to near the hub. For a front brake 2X to 3X farther. Rear brake, just a bit. They weigh more than what you can do with cables. Modern steel cable alternatives like Power Cordz are about half the mass of cables and steel and almost as smooth as hydro.

The reservoir is usually in the lever and that adds weight.

A good rim brake is the same disc idea where the rotor is the rim. When it is dry and clean and the brake caliper and pads are of of high quality they work great. I prefer them to a disc feel.

Then the wheel change is not, IMO as fast, or as sure to fit. For MTB and cx we use them. For road, no. Don't want to. Neither my kid or I
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Old 03-24-18, 06:10 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
...
unfortunately with racing we'll all have to go where neutral service goes: that has been the motivator for many people to, say, upgrade from perfectly fine 10s to 11s.
...
Personal #1 reason right there. That is why, as great as Campy is - Shimano will likely be the support, or SRAM locally. They are there to help everyone, but it is nice to have the suff you know they have.

Mini pet peeve is why they don't have a few spare bike with their pedals already installed. I get they want to let you select but c'mon - have an all-Shimano setup bike for the all-Shimano rider.
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Old 03-24-18, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Personal #1 reason right there. That is why, as great as Campy is - Shimano will likely be the support, or SRAM locally. They are there to help everyone, but it is nice to have the suff you know they have.

Mini pet peeve is why they don't have a few spare bike with their pedals already installed. I get they want to let you select but c'mon - have an all-Shimano setup bike for the all-Shimano rider.
nice thing about neutral for most amateur events is that it is primarily wheels. all 11s (sram/campy/shimano) worked fine. wasn't so for prior generations.

wonder what 12s will bring.
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Old 03-24-18, 06:13 PM
  #143  
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Anecdote that goes against my buying a new disc bike.. Instead of getting a wheel change at the chico crit. Justin Willaims had to change bikes off of his venge to his allez because, even though there were wheels, it would have taken too long to get the swap done.

Of course he still won, but I'm sure he would have been more comfortable staying on the same bike the whole race instead of having to re adapt to line choice due to braking areas (not many in that race, but still).
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Old 03-24-18, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
nice thing about neutral for most amateur events is that it is primarily wheels. all 11s (sram/campy/shimano) worked fine. wasn't so for prior generations.

wonder what 12s will bring.
Rumour on the internet is we wont be waiting long to find out.
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Old 03-24-18, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6 View Post
Rumour on the internet is we wont be waiting long to find out.
for cross-compatibility?

i haven't paid much attention to 12s road, though someone told me the other day there was a rumor about campy 12s.

if we haven't seen any 12s groups, something tells me it is going to be a material amount of time before we see it from all manufacturers AND someone tests a campy 12s cassette on a shimano drivetrain, or vice versa.

maybe you have heard something different, though?
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Old 03-24-18, 06:31 PM
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I've heard rumors about 12 speed coming soon (Like, possibly sea otter) from a few forums (specifically Dave from 3t has been hinting at it in a few places). Not much more than that. I've seen the latest new cycle of Shimano wireless and campy 12s as well, but those are filed patents. Never know with those things how (or when) they'll make it to the real world.
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Old 03-24-18, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
+1. currently, many of the "advantages" have offsetting negatives that are downplayed.

unfortunately with racing we'll all have to go where neutral service goes: that has been the motivator for many people to, say, upgrade from perfectly fine 10s to 11s.

Last time I did Athens Twilight, I was on nine speed. Crashed, got back in, then flatted. They only had 10 speed wheels in the pit. Got one but couldn't shift at all without the chain jumping all over the place. After a couple of laps I got dropped.

No more nine speed after that at big races!

Went to nationals a month later...borrowed a 10 speed bike.
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Old 03-24-18, 06:57 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6 View Post
Anecdote that goes against my buying a new disc bike.. Instead of getting a wheel change at the chico crit. Justin Willaims had to change bikes off of his venge to his allez because, even though there were wheels, it would have taken too long to get the swap done.

Of course he still won, but I'm sure he would have been more comfortable staying on the same bike the whole race instead of having to re adapt to line choice due to braking areas (not many in that race, but still).
not to mention that comparatively few races have *neutral bikes* on offer.
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Old 03-24-18, 10:29 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6 View Post
Anecdote that goes against my buying a new disc bike.. Instead of getting a wheel change at the chico crit. Justin Willaims had to change bikes off of his venge to his allez because, even though there were wheels, it would have taken too long to get the swap done.

Of course he still won, but I'm sure he would have been more comfortable staying on the same bike the whole race instead of having to re adapt to line choice due to braking areas (not many in that race, but still).
I do this. But that normally does not work for neutral support. They may have a bike, but they usually don't have pedals on (see minor pet peeve). And in a RR that cost mins, and no free lap.
For crits - sure.
I'm planning a possible bike switch mid RR on purpose coming up. Kinda combining cx and RR. Not sure I can sell it to junior, but it might be fun.
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Old 03-25-18, 08:05 PM
  #150  
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i look forward to the big switch to disc. every bike i saw today seemed to be disc...

iíll be chillin on rim brakes, and will gladly accept all your old incompatible carbon wheels!
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