caloso

I have nothing to add, just wanted to subscribe because this is fascinating.

hack

I'm going to try some of these tactics on the River Ride tonight.

aaronmcd

I'm racing to win. I have 6 teammates behind me in the pack including a good sprinter (who ended up winning the pack sprint for 4th). Pulling through won't "make me lose" and yes I'm for sure strong enough to take some pulls. But why? I don't gain anything from taking pulls. And I DO lose a slight amount off my sprint, however small, for each pull. Each pull I take reduces the team's chances and I don't want to let down 6 teammates back there in the field. Early on they would yell at me to pull, so I just told them the truth flat out: I'm OK with being caught, my 6 teammates can try again. I'm also OK with not getting caught and saving energy for the sprint. I'm not OK with working for a break that I don't particularly care about. That's the bonus from having so many teammates in a race.

After the race everyone was chill again. Actually by the time they realized I wouldn't work they were chill with it. It's a race and we all knew it. The super-beast beat me anyway (and kept winning & upgraded shortly), and the third guy got dropped last lap and accepted it as well. "Good race guys" all around after the finish line. Apparently that's the big difference in men's racing.

rideaz

The women's fields are really small here (and other places according to this thread) so I'm not sure if the social and cooperative aspects are a turn on or off to women who want to race? It's an interesting topic.

rubiksoval

Why? Because as I said before, it promotes negative racing.

You're at the front of the race, presumably so that you can race for the win, yet you're not racing. You're sitting on, actively discouraging the race.

At the end of the day, you'll justify it however you like, and you're certainly within your rights to do so. There's never a rule that says you have to pull or not pull.

But like I said, you're not respected for it and you're not winning any friends. And if done enough, you're likely to eventually find yourself on the opposite side of the spectrum and people will refuse to work with you. That may not matter, of course, and you might just play the "teammates" card again, but I think that's a copout.

An elite team did a similar move as you describe a few weeks ago at a big regional crit. Put their guy in a break of four that had two guys from another team in the break. He sat on for almost an hour and EVERYONE heard about it. He was totally lambasted for it, as was his team. He probably didn't care. He ended up second (probably picked up near a grand in prize money), but everyone around knows about it and no one respects it. I lost respect for his team, too, as did a lot of people, and that will come back at some point. Because after a while of racing, everyone starts to figure each other out. And we see other quite often throughout the season.

Negative racing is just that, negative.

PepeM

I heard that no one passes the salt to Michael Matthews during breakfast anymore.

shovelhd

[QUOTE=Poonjabby;18911571]This is her official first year of racing. She raced a couple of races last year. She started the year as a Cat 4 but just crushed the field so she decided to move to Cat 3 because she was demoralizing the local Cat 4’s.

The move to Cat 3 matched her against some very tough competition in a local team that’s been together for a long time. Because the fields are so small here they race Women’s 1/2/3 together and the local team has girls in each Cat. I’m glad some of the other female racers posted. The whole group ride thing rings true here in Kansas also.

An example at last weekends road race. The local team was there with three Cat 3 women, another team had a Cat 2 in the race and my wife for a total of 5 in the Women’s 1/2/3. At the start of the race the eventual winner of the race said “Ride together until the end and then sprint for the finish?” My wife and the eventual winner are the two strongestof the group. During the entire 52 mile ride the local team was calling out who should be pulling. With a KM to go the winner attacked after my wife pulled and won the race.

Thoughts?

Again, what are her strengths? "Strong" doesn't really mean anything.

Whether she is a sprinter or a kilo/break rider, she should not have been anywhere near the front with 1km to go, especially when she was outnumbered. She had two options at that point, attack when the strongest rider pulled off, or get on her wheel and stay there until the last 200m.

nycphotography

lolz really?

So his team isn't allowed to apply strategy and work for him in your fantasy land of ethical bike racing?

Hate to break it to you, but that's not how it really works.

shermo

See, I'd find that race much, much easier than the one last weekend. The 2 strongest of us attacked after 2k. We got caught after a couple of minutes, but the other guy in the break was on the front when we got caught and wasn't able to go with the counter. I was, and the me and the guy who countered spent the next hour just ahead of the chasing 4. Eventually they gave up and we started match racing.

'Not rolling through' doesn't mean sitting on, and it certainly doesn't make the race easier. It makes it much harder. For me at least, maybe other people have different strengths?

Although having 3 people from one team does change the dynamic a lot, I agree. Especially if the other unattached people think the have some obligation to roll through.

rubiksoval

Isn't allowed? I'm not following that comment.

To be clear, I wasn't in the break. I wasn't doing the lambasting. But I was privy to it and agreed with it wholeheartedly. This isn't solely my view. It's a ridiculous tactic from one of the top riders on one of the top regional teams. And it was/is heavily frowned upon.

Whether or not you think all's fair in love and crit racing isn't really relevant to how the people in the actual race feel.

Grumpy McTrumpy

to the OP:

Just out of curiosity: How do these races usually end up? Assuming she's in a group of 3 against 1.

rubiksoval

Not sure how that wouldn't make it easier seeing as how you're never in the wind. It wouldn't be easier if stronger riders start taking you off the back and creating gaps, to be sure. But just sitting on and shuffling to last wheel each rotation should be much easier if you're managing it correctly.

Grumpy McTrumpy

Here's some funny stuff to say:

"Three against one? Strong am I with the force, but stupid I am not."

"Admittedly, my math skills are not the best in the world, but I do sense a certain imbalance here."

"I left my pulling legs in my other dress." "Funny, it looks JUST like your team kit."

shermo

Yeah exactly. In what sort of race are people going to let you just sit on while everyone else pacelines in front of you? If you have a chasing peleton, then yes. Otherwise, if you start sitting on, someone else will stop rolling through and so on. Eventually you have people attacking/countering, which is when the weaker riders get dropped.

If you want an easy ride, you just roll through and shout at people who don't. Which is what most people do.

carpediemracing 

canuck hits some very valid points.

- If that's the agreement the unwritten expectation is that riders will start taking the edge off their pulls toward the end, and probably before any significant obstacle like a significant hill etc. Getting caught flat footed with 1 km to go, that should only happen once. After that one time the rider who got jumped should never get jumped again, especially by the same "jumper".
- When in a situation where everyone "works together until x to go" make absolutely sure you're on the strongest rider's wheel. If that's not possible then at least get two riders between you and them. This way they're not queued up to attack when you pull off.
- When pulling keep looking down at shadows, keep an ear out for shifts, look for riders consistently out of line with the others (usually means they want to attack).
- Even if there's an agreement there's still ample opportunity to stack the deck in your favor by doing what I mentioned before - not pulling into headwinds, pulling a bit harder into cross/tailwinds, etc. This degrades their reserves quicker than it degrades yours, assuming somewhat similar fitness/ability.
- Do some play acting. Let a gap go over a hill or maybe around a corner. Do it in situations where the conditions work with you - going into a tailwind, into a headwind where everyone slows right up, etc. A few bike lengths, something to close immediately, but it's stuff that people notice. Do it consistently and others will underestimate you.
- Utilize whatever to make the others work. I'm a heavier, more dense rider. I descend like a rock. I use that to my advantage to open up gaps or to close ones I've let open. I'm short on the bike so I make myself shorter when I'm pulling. There are other tricks but those are some of the more obvious ones.
- Limit your losses in your weak areas. I climb like a rock. Therefore in crits I either drift back on a climb or I punch over it to make others work. I can't handle longer climbs, meaning anything over about 45 seconds (for me 60 seconds is the Tourmalet) so I don't race those races anymore, but same theory applies.
- Learn to sit out of the wind. With so few riders you can't make a mistake. Sit in shelter - it almost always means sitting to one side or another of the rider in front. Unless you're flat out it's rarely sitting directly behind. You must know how to instantly figure out where the wind is coming from and how to shelter from it.
- Likewise, you must get used to drafting very closely. Drafting saves the most amount of energy overall and if you're not drafting you're going to be burning a lot of energy better used to break your opponents.

Finally, keep in mind that due to drafting it's entirely possible for someone to make a break who literally cannot take a single pull without getting shelled. I've found that although I can't ride very fast in a break (I typically average 160-180w in a race, 200w and I'm usually done), I have the jump to follow moves. I can stay with many breaks if I don't work. Not everyone can put down the prerequisite 300-400w to take pulls and such, even for a short amount of time (5 seconds?). For me, following wheels at speed puts me solidly into my 2-5 min max numbers; I rely on being able to recover for 20-30 seconds a lap in order to simply finish a crit. If there's little/no recovery then I can't take a single pull at 300w if I need to do 200-250w just to sit on a wheel (keeping in mind various jumps out of corners and such).

Problem is that I can read races so when a solid move goes I know it. If I can get across to it then I won't pull unless absolutely necessary. When I do pull it's pretty pathetic, like 22-24 mph, and such a pull might get me shelled. I've gotten yelled at to get off the front because I was pulling so slowly they thought I was blocking. Everyone in the area knows me so usually when I link up to a move it usually sits up or there's an immediate counter move to shed me.

In one spring series a while ago (the ones I promoted for 20 odd years) I got into the winning break every week for a maybe 4 or 5 weeks. Then I'd take a token pull and get shelled. My token pulls got shorter and shorter, from a solid 20 second pull to one that just cleared the rider that had pulled off. I still got shelled. My teammates would tell me not to pull, I knew not to pull, but in a 4 or 5 or 6 man group it's very hard not feeling obligated to pull. The break would have eeked out a 30-40 second advantage by the time I got shelled, partially due to me having literally a dozen teammates marking moves, along with all the other break member's teams marking moves, so the field was basically soft pedaling since a solid quarter or third of them had a teammate up front. I was our team leader but I needed it to come to a field sprint. Other teammates got into the earlier breaks but couldn't hang or got crushed in the finish.

Finally one week when I made the break yet again the "patron" (he was the overall Series leader and he'd won most of the races up to that point) told me in no uncertain terms to sit at the back and not pull at all. Then he yelled at the others that I (meaning me) was to sit at the back and no one should make me pull. When some of the others protested he pointed out that it's my home race so to speak and I had a solid dozen teammates just waiting to chase down the break. He didn't point out that they failed each week, but I think that not having a dozen more chasers suited him fine. The other break members relented. They all sat up at one point so we wouldn't lap the field (because then my dozen teammates and my sprint would come into play), pedaling again once the gap opened up to something like 30 or 45 seconds. They all decided at 5 to go it was open season, so we did something like 25 laps with me sitting at the back. Promptly at 5 to go 2 guys attacked the break, blew up, and got shelled. I felt bad but I wasn't going to wait for them so I just stayed with the other three. It was the patron, me, and one other guy. I started to pull mainly because it was just 3 guys and because I was fresh (obviously). The other guy wasn't pulling much because the patron guy was there so the patron guy was doing all the work, so I did some bigger pulls. The patron guy didn't attack me when I pulled off and the other guy was waiting for the sprint so he didn't attack either of us. I decided long before that I wasn't going to sprint but I'd just follow moves. Patron guy absolutely annihilated the other guy in the sprint, I carefully rolled in a couple seconds behind that second place guy. For me that felt like a good race. I'd done as well as I could without dismantling my self respect. If the other two guys hadn't shelled themselves I'd have gotten 5th and I'd have been just as satisfied with the race.

Poonjabby

[QUOTE=shovelhd;18912732]
Here are her numbers from last weeks race from Training Peaks.


Duration 2:44:02
Distance 52.2 Miles
Average Speed 19.7 MPH
Top Speed 44.4 MPH
Calories 1319
Elevation Gain 2116ft
TSS 207.3
IF 0.87
Normalized Power 161W
Heart Rate Min 108 Avg 164 Max 196
Power Avg 134 Max 600
w/kg 2.15
VO2 MAX 67




Poon

carpediemracing 

I don't know women's numbers but is 600w correct for a max?

What is her FTP? If her VO2 max really is 67 whatever-whatever the units are for normal VO2 max stuff that's super, super high. Well compared to me, I think I'm 52 or 54.

valygrl

Not here - we race. My fields are small, but bigger than 6, so maybe that is different.

Joking/being a goofball doesn't make you any friends.


Here's how i see this: some people use talking as a race tactic. If they can get you to work and wear yourself out by telling you what to do,then that is a successful tactic for them. You don't have to do what someone tells you to do. I find just racing my race and not responding works fine, or just say "OK" or "Yeah No" or "Whatever" and just keep doing what you want to do. If we are talking about being in the pack, not the break, there is no obligation to work just to make the race faster. If you are in the break, as others have said, it depends on the race situation, do you think you have a better chance of winning from the break (work to keep it away), do you have teammates behind you (you may not need to work), are the people with you smart enough to take you off the back if you don't at least look like you are working (work), etc.

My races - Cat 3 usually, so i guess that is "non elite" whatever that means - are not cooperative group rides, ending in a sprint, even if no break gets away and it ends in a sprint. People try to get away, sometimes they can't. Personally, my best chance to win is out of a reduced bunch sprint, and saving energy for the end is useful. That doesn't mean i sit in at all costs or that I don't chase down attacks, but it does mean I never sit on the front and tow the field around. Most often I have 1 or 0 teammates and there are 3 other teams with 2-6 racers in the race - why would i tow them around and help make it fast? If it's slow and I'm resting, fine!

On the other hand, my teammate N can't win a sprint, her best chance to win is to escape and use her superior TT/climbing to stay away. So, she attacks. She doesn't tow the field around either. Why would she do that?

I don't think it's different than mens racing, at least here. it is NEVER a cooperative rotating paceline of the entire group to the end. I have been yelled at to take a pull and refused. It doesn't get me ostracized or hated. There are a few gals who don't get it and do pull the field around, and I'm always perfectly happy to let them, if they wear themselves out, great, i have a better chance to out-sprint them in the end.

I've never head of anyone complaining to the officials here that someone didn't take their pulls. that's just dumb, and I find it hard to believe it happens frequently.

c'belle, you may have found your cat 3&4 races boringly easy because you are much stronger than most of the others. That doesn't mean they aren't racing, they probably don't feel like they are on a cooperative group ride. There would never be a reason for me to pull if you are in the field sitting in, why would i bring you to the line fresher than me? They may have just been racing smartly to their abilities. The different racing you see in your P12 races may be because there are now people who are as strong as you to race against.

I think the biggest 'women' factor with this stuff is that women are more likely to want to be liked and to be seen as cooperative, so the verbal tactics are more likely both to work and to hurt feelings. If you don't let it work, and don't get your feelings hurt when you are yelled at and don't comply, and just comport yourself in a sportsmanlike manner, all will be well after the race, and if someone gets riled up about it, it's her problem not yours.

tldr: no, your wife does not have to pull

Poonjabby

Her VO2 Max was done at KU Med here in Kansas City. She used to be a marathoner before she got into cycling.


600 Max is about normal for her now. We're working on upping her power.


Poon

shovelhd

Poon, you still didn't answer my question. The numbers say she's probably not going to win a sprint. Can she get away and stay away?

valygrl

I can win a sprint with 600 watts. she may be a lightweight, like, me.

grolby

Something possibly getting lost in the discussion of how "men's racing" is different from "women's racing:" the racing culture varies from region to region in the US. It certainly does for men. Stands to reason it does for women as well. I've raced fairly extensively in Tennessee and the greater South (where @rubiksoval is racing) and in New England. And from my observations, his feelings about not pulling through in a break have a lot to do with being in that Southern racing culture. Not that it's super-different, but racing in the Northeast isn't exactly the same. And I've seen women's races in the South and in the Northeast. They don't look exactly the same. Part of that might have to do with average field size - we still struggle with field size issues, because there are simply far fewer women racing than men. But there are more women racing in the Northeast than in the South. Exactly how different they are, I don't know. But I think if we were frequently racing in fields of, say, 6 men and they were the SAME 6 men for race after race, our tactics would look a little different as well.

canuckbelle

They were boring because nearly no one attacks. And if they do, it's an attack here or there, maybe a counter attack. And then people give up attacking when nothing works the first few times. Believe me, until this year, I was *never* the strongest person in the bunch. In fact, I was often one of the weakest (people just see me and assume I'm the strongest). I had a sprint, sure, but I was basically just like CDR: I could quickly close gaps and make breaks, but there was a high risk of being shelled if I worked equally. And I could be on the rivet but still easily win a bunch sprint (because the energy systems are so different).

I have, like TopFlightPro's wife, seen people complain to officials when a woman didn't pull in a race. But it might be a regional thing. It happens a lot around here (TFP and I are in the same southeast region). And I seriously mean that I've been in road races (plural) where it was expected to have a rotating paceline the whole way to the sprint. Absurd (as you note).

Poonjabby

No


I would say sprinting isn't her strong suite. Her strong suite is endurance and climbing. She's 5'6" 135 lbs.


Poon

Ygduf

1309 words.