More weight more power?
09-23-16, 03:37 PM
#26
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I have known life at my ideal racing weight. No, my diet was not "normal". Yes, I did eat well. No, I did not eat food most wives would approve of. But I did get to live a life of feeling incredible almost every day. A bounce in my step I have not seen since.
This did not make me a rocket at crits. But this (then) young man who had always been a bench warmer at every sport could climb with the better 2s and many of the 1s. And I hung in some very fast races that were beyond my imagination just a year or two before.
I achieved that level of form when I got my weight down to 145 pounds. (6' 1/2" and long limbed.) That level is long gone and impossible to get back; its been 40 years, but if I wanted to be at my now best, I would have to get back to that weight again. (Actually, lighter. As we age we lose muscle mass. Say my in-form legs are now 3 pounds lighter than they were in 1977. My ideal weight would then be 142.)
Every time I dip below 150 I feel better on the bike.
Ben
This did not make me a rocket at crits. But this (then) young man who had always been a bench warmer at every sport could climb with the better 2s and many of the 1s. And I hung in some very fast races that were beyond my imagination just a year or two before.
I achieved that level of form when I got my weight down to 145 pounds. (6' 1/2" and long limbed.) That level is long gone and impossible to get back; its been 40 years, but if I wanted to be at my now best, I would have to get back to that weight again. (Actually, lighter. As we age we lose muscle mass. Say my in-form legs are now 3 pounds lighter than they were in 1977. My ideal weight would then be 142.)
Every time I dip below 150 I feel better on the bike.
Ben
09-23-16, 04:06 PM
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The freight trains (big stocky guys, not fat....like Chris Pratt) seem to do well in the 4-5 Category crits but then hit a wall as they upgrade (generally).
Your short term power goes up (under 30 seconds?) the bigger you are but IMO, its not worth the tradeoff for the loss of FTP and w/kg. Even in crits you need that FTP because the higher it is, the fresher you are at the end. A lot of the other guys I've talked to more or less agree, its better to lose some of your sprint and have a better power curve.
Your short term power goes up (under 30 seconds?) the bigger you are but IMO, its not worth the tradeoff for the loss of FTP and w/kg. Even in crits you need that FTP because the higher it is, the fresher you are at the end. A lot of the other guys I've talked to more or less agree, its better to lose some of your sprint and have a better power curve.
09-23-16, 05:18 PM
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The freight trains (big stocky guys, not fat....like Chris Pratt) seem to do well in the 4-5 Category crits but then hit a wall as they upgrade (generally).
Your short term power goes up (under 30 seconds?) the bigger you are but IMO, its not worth the tradeoff for the loss of FTP and w/kg. Even in crits you need that FTP because the higher it is, the fresher you are at the end. A lot of the other guys I've talked to more or less agree, its better to lose some of your sprint and have a better power curve.
Your short term power goes up (under 30 seconds?) the bigger you are but IMO, its not worth the tradeoff for the loss of FTP and w/kg. Even in crits you need that FTP because the higher it is, the fresher you are at the end. A lot of the other guys I've talked to more or less agree, its better to lose some of your sprint and have a better power curve.
09-23-16, 05:33 PM
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The freight trains (big stocky guys, not fat....like Chris Pratt) seem to do well in the 4-5 Category crits but then hit a wall as they upgrade (generally).
Your short term power goes up (under 30 seconds?) the bigger you are but IMO, its not worth the tradeoff for the loss of FTP and w/kg. Even in crits you need that FTP because the higher it is, the fresher you are at the end. A lot of the other guys I've talked to more or less agree, its better to lose some of your sprint and have a better power curve.
Your short term power goes up (under 30 seconds?) the bigger you are but IMO, its not worth the tradeoff for the loss of FTP and w/kg. Even in crits you need that FTP because the higher it is, the fresher you are at the end. A lot of the other guys I've talked to more or less agree, its better to lose some of your sprint and have a better power curve.
09-23-16, 06:07 PM
#30
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The freight trains (big stocky guys, not fat....like Chris Pratt) seem to do well in the 4-5 Category crits but then hit a wall as they upgrade (generally).
Your short term power goes up (under 30 seconds?) the bigger you are but IMO, its not worth the tradeoff for the loss of FTP and w/kg. Even in crits you need that FTP because the higher it is, the fresher you are at the end. A lot of the other guys I've talked to more or less agree, its better to lose some of your sprint and have a better power curve.
Your short term power goes up (under 30 seconds?) the bigger you are but IMO, its not worth the tradeoff for the loss of FTP and w/kg. Even in crits you need that FTP because the higher it is, the fresher you are at the end. A lot of the other guys I've talked to more or less agree, its better to lose some of your sprint and have a better power curve.
A big muscle will - with all else equal - produce more power (in watts) than a small muscle. Once you start talking W/Kg you are deviating from the op's question and are answering "more weight more speed". Even if the increased weight was of low quality (fat and poorly trained muscle), say 1W/kg, it's still more power... one whole watt for that Kg.
09-23-16, 08:24 PM
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I lost close to 30lbs dieting and doing long slow rides. My climbing definitely improved and I was probably always training in the "sweet spot" or lower (don't really know since I didn't have a power meter at the time.) I raced a little bit this year, and now that the season is over, I've been on a structured training plan with a power meter to raise FTP. In 3 1/2 weeks my FTP has gone up 5 watts, weight has also gone up since I'm constantly hungry. I'm beginning to wonder if just sweet spot and below training is better, as I was steadily losing weight and able to control appetite.
09-23-16, 08:35 PM
#32
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Of course at some level, exercise will build some strength and endurance, and maybe a bit of speed, but I don't believe you can effectively train and diet at the same time.
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09-24-16, 04:09 AM
#33
out walking the earth
it really depends on what you call "diet."
I lost ten pounds this season over my typical race weight, while training (I'm basically always training-but in this case we're talking in season training). I figure I started losing weight in the beginning of May (I was already down to my typical race weight), and I simply changed how I eat. I never lost power. I've held the weight as well, and my power numbers are still as good as they were at their best last year.
So if someone wants to lose a lot of weight really fast, no, you probably can't do that. But if you want to lose a pound or two a week, and train your ass off it's not really an impossible thing.
I lost ten pounds this season over my typical race weight, while training (I'm basically always training-but in this case we're talking in season training). I figure I started losing weight in the beginning of May (I was already down to my typical race weight), and I simply changed how I eat. I never lost power. I've held the weight as well, and my power numbers are still as good as they were at their best last year.
So if someone wants to lose a lot of weight really fast, no, you probably can't do that. But if you want to lose a pound or two a week, and train your ass off it's not really an impossible thing.
09-25-16, 09:53 AM
#34
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it really depends on what you call "diet."
I lost ten pounds this season over my typical race weight, while training (I'm basically always training-but in this case we're talking in season training). I figure I started losing weight in the beginning of May (I was already down to my typical race weight), and I simply changed how I eat. I never lost power. I've held the weight as well, and my power numbers are still as good as they were at their best last year.
So if someone wants to lose a lot of weight really fast, no, you probably can't do that. But if you want to lose a pound or two a week, and train your ass off it's not really an impossible thing.
I lost ten pounds this season over my typical race weight, while training (I'm basically always training-but in this case we're talking in season training). I figure I started losing weight in the beginning of May (I was already down to my typical race weight), and I simply changed how I eat. I never lost power. I've held the weight as well, and my power numbers are still as good as they were at their best last year.
So if someone wants to lose a lot of weight really fast, no, you probably can't do that. But if you want to lose a pound or two a week, and train your ass off it's not really an impossible thing.
09-25-16, 10:20 AM
#35
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I realized I didn't need to eat before training in the morning, so I train then have a recovery drink. Effectively cutting a meal. I also cut back on my dinner portions, particularly proteins. Lastly instead of having post race rub day be a free for all I eat normal and if I do have desert that night it's pretty small.
09-26-16, 10:49 AM
#36
09-26-16, 11:42 AM
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Just a tidbit: don't underestimate the "power" of bike handling skills. Drafting can get you between 15% and 40% gain, right off the bat, which is WAY more than you can gain by losing weight or increasing your power, and you can realize that gain simply by positioning yourself well.
I'm not claiming to be great, but I have been working on weight and power a lot this season. With that said, my bike handling has improved A TON as well. I did a couple of cat 5 races last year and got absolutely SMASHED. Today, however, even though my power numbers are a little low for Cat 5 when compared against the commonly known cycling power/weight chart, with a modest 25% draft gain, it puts me over the edge. On the right course with the right field, I could actually be competitive. Check out my Excel nerdiness - it tells an interesting story:
I'm not claiming to be great, but I have been working on weight and power a lot this season. With that said, my bike handling has improved A TON as well. I did a couple of cat 5 races last year and got absolutely SMASHED. Today, however, even though my power numbers are a little low for Cat 5 when compared against the commonly known cycling power/weight chart, with a modest 25% draft gain, it puts me over the edge. On the right course with the right field, I could actually be competitive. Check out my Excel nerdiness - it tells an interesting story:
09-26-16, 08:52 PM
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, and cut back on the training level, so
Improving the power to weight ratio is always good. FTP is important for the longer hills and general ability to sustain power in anything but short events. Both are good, and critical to raising your competitiveness.
But "lightest weight possible" has to be approached with a bit of common sense. We all have different body types and some people will NEVER be light.
So, if there's some useless fat that you're tired of dragging up hills, by all means get rid of it if you can. But know that it's very difficult to train effectively and improve power while you're starving your body to shave weight.
It's near the end of the season, so maybe forget the diet for now and train as hard as you can, eating accordingly. This winter you can diet hard, while easing up on the training, so come Spring, you can hit the road as a leaner meaner version.
But "lightest weight possible" has to be approached with a bit of common sense. We all have different body types and some people will NEVER be light.
So, if there's some useless fat that you're tired of dragging up hills, by all means get rid of it if you can. But know that it's very difficult to train effectively and improve power while you're starving your body to shave weight.
It's near the end of the season, so maybe forget the diet for now and train as hard as you can, eating accordingly. This winter you can diet hard, while easing up on the training, so come Spring, you can hit the road as a leaner meaner version.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
“Never argue with an idiot. He will only bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.”, George Carlin
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
09-27-16, 07:18 AM
#40
Senior Member
Just a tidbit: don't underestimate the "power" of bike handling skills. Drafting can get you between 15% and 40% gain, right off the bat, which is WAY more than you can gain by losing weight or increasing your power, and you can realize that gain simply by positioning yourself well.
I'm not claiming to be great, but I have been working on weight and power a lot this season. With that said, my bike handling has improved A TON as well. I did a couple of cat 5 races last year and got absolutely SMASHED. Today, however, even though my power numbers are a little low for Cat 5 when compared against the commonly known cycling power/weight chart, with a modest 25% draft gain, it puts me over the edge. On the right course with the right field, I could actually be competitive. Check out my Excel nerdiness - it tells an interesting story:
I'm not claiming to be great, but I have been working on weight and power a lot this season. With that said, my bike handling has improved A TON as well. I did a couple of cat 5 races last year and got absolutely SMASHED. Today, however, even though my power numbers are a little low for Cat 5 when compared against the commonly known cycling power/weight chart, with a modest 25% draft gain, it puts me over the edge. On the right course with the right field, I could actually be competitive. Check out my Excel nerdiness - it tells an interesting story:
btw attachment is not a valid link. A screenshot would be better.
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09-27-16, 02:49 PM
#42
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, and cut back on the training level, so
Improving the power to weight ratio is always good. FTP is important for the longer hills and general ability to sustain power in anything but short events. Both are good, and critical to raising your competitiveness.
But "lightest weight possible" has to be approached with a bit of common sense. We all have different body types and some people will NEVER be light.
So, if there's some useless fat that you're tired of dragging up hills, by all means get rid of it if you can. But know that it's very difficult to train effectively and improve power while you're starving your body to shave weight.
It's near the end of the season, so maybe forget the diet for now and train as hard as you can, eating accordingly. This winter you can diet hard, while easing up on the training, so come Spring, you can hit the road as a leaner meaner version.
Improving the power to weight ratio is always good. FTP is important for the longer hills and general ability to sustain power in anything but short events. Both are good, and critical to raising your competitiveness.
But "lightest weight possible" has to be approached with a bit of common sense. We all have different body types and some people will NEVER be light.
So, if there's some useless fat that you're tired of dragging up hills, by all means get rid of it if you can. But know that it's very difficult to train effectively and improve power while you're starving your body to shave weight.
It's near the end of the season, so maybe forget the diet for now and train as hard as you can, eating accordingly. This winter you can diet hard, while easing up on the training, so come Spring, you can hit the road as a leaner meaner version.
09-27-16, 06:33 PM
#44
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09-27-16, 08:08 PM
#45
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Just a tidbit: don't underestimate the "power" of bike handling skills. Drafting can get you between 15% and 40% gain, right off the bat, which is WAY more than you can gain by losing weight or increasing your power, and you can realize that gain simply by positioning yourself well.
On the other hand, drafting all day isn't gonna win you any races unless you're a great sprinter and there aren't any sustained climbs. When you need to make the best chance move, or when you hit the longer climbs, threshold power absolutely matters a lot.
When I can't sprint and I can't threshold, racing in p12, the only thing I can do is try and sneak into someone else's break, never pull, and pray to God they don't ride fast. Or wait til the most likely time for no one to feel like chasing and go suicide mode, and probably fail!
09-29-16, 08:16 PM
#46
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One of the general rules that you might consider is that strength is proportional to the square of the linear dimensions, while mass is proportional to the cube. So as things get bigger the strength to weight ratio gets less favorable.
That's where that "ants are 10,000 times stronger, pound for pound, than humans" factoids comes from.
I tell you this so you'll see the futility of trying to become a better hill climber by bulking up.
Or to put it another way. Draught horses are far more powerful, but they can't keep up to race horses.
Bicycles have gears that allow both big, strong and light, fast riders optimize the machine, but as a general rule, fast beats strong every time
That's where that "ants are 10,000 times stronger, pound for pound, than humans" factoids comes from.
I tell you this so you'll see the futility of trying to become a better hill climber by bulking up.
Or to put it another way. Draught horses are far more powerful, but they can't keep up to race horses.
Bicycles have gears that allow both big, strong and light, fast riders optimize the machine, but as a general rule, fast beats strong every time
Horses for Courses
09-29-16, 08:21 PM
#47
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I'm 215 pounds and climb okay but not as fast or easily as the young and skinny guys but far better than average. The longer the climb, the more effort I need to give up. The short "punchy" ones, I can torque/mash my way up faster than the skinnier guys.
On the flats, the skinnier guys have a hard time matching my pace and after the ride, we have a sprint section and the skinnier guys usually do not have enough reserve in their tank to compete for the win.
I have found that climbing is as much about technique than weight, so a guy with extra weight and good technique would be right there with the lighter guys. All this means nothing if your conditioning isn't up to par. I am pretty fit with high endurance but those long climbs still zap me. I recover as I coast on the down side.
On the flats, the skinnier guys have a hard time matching my pace and after the ride, we have a sprint section and the skinnier guys usually do not have enough reserve in their tank to compete for the win.
I have found that climbing is as much about technique than weight, so a guy with extra weight and good technique would be right there with the lighter guys. All this means nothing if your conditioning isn't up to par. I am pretty fit with high endurance but those long climbs still zap me. I recover as I coast on the down side.
Like you, I can hang with little guys, even hurt them on short power climbs. Extended climbs, w/kg take over, and no amount of technique can change physics
09-29-16, 09:17 PM
#48
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Search "Robert Gesink weight" and see he is 154, mine was that heavy at least with full kit and water logged.
Robert's listed weight of course may not be true. And power meters may be off - which is kinda why I think using power numbers is not so good. But time and time again I see big differences in power, and not the expected time differences.
Robert did 29:53@293W, my kid 29:24@255W. 38W difference, same weight, lower W faster time.
https://www.strava.com/segments/618470
09-29-16, 10:12 PM
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Sure - like the headwind section my kid did with 38W less power and soaked head and side winds.
So it is...
-Bad PM - he's really a lot stronger than we all thought.
-The pro has an even more inflated PM
-Someone is not weighing what they say
-There may be technique in climbing.
I already posted this. But wet clothes, floppy jacket, rain and sleet and 38W lower power got faster time?
So it is...
-Bad PM - he's really a lot stronger than we all thought.
-The pro has an even more inflated PM
-Someone is not weighing what they say
-There may be technique in climbing.
I already posted this. But wet clothes, floppy jacket, rain and sleet and 38W lower power got faster time?
