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Custom Gearing for Cat 5 Sprinter - 52/34 12-28

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Custom Gearing for Cat 5 Sprinter - 52/34 12-28

Old 10-10-16, 06:16 PM
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ypsetihw
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Custom Gearing for Cat 5 Sprinter - 52/34 12-28

I've searched and read a lot - maybe this post is just to tell you what I'm going to attempt and to log my results for the rest of the web.

What I had: FSA Omega 50/34, BB4000 English - 105 5800 FD/SS RD 105 11-28
Advertised Specs: 16T max drop, 28t max advertised, 33 total tooth max capacity

What I'm running: DA9000 52/36, BB9000 English - 105 5800 FD/SS RD 105 (12-28) (built from 5800 11/-28/12-25)

What I'm going to run: DA9000 52/34, BB9000 English, 105 5800 FD/SS RD 105 12-28 [running 18T drop on 105 5800 FD Mechanical on 105 12-28 cassette, being careful not to crosschain]
Actual Specs: 18T max drop, 28t max advertised, 34 total max capacity

I don't think the 34 tooth total will be an issue at all, especially because I don't cross chain, and never beyond 2 cogs., and I'm sure Shimano designs a cog or two of error into their posted specs. I will have a compact low gear (34/28) and a nearly standard high (52/12), with a crazy range, with over 40mph+ of top end for leadouts and downhills and a modest low gear for climbing. Given this setup, a front change would be accompanied by 4 gears on the cassette, which is more than 1 throw, but doable. I've ready in detail that the new 2015+ 105+ can easily take 18T up front. Carefully conducted, this setup could probably also utilize a 12-32 .

I'm not only certain this can be done, I'm wondering why Shimano doesn't come out with something incredible and drastic, like the 46/30 13-32, which in my opinion, would absolutely crush the commuter and touring market. It could go anywhere and almost NEVER exceed the drivetrain in any situation.

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Old 10-10-16, 06:32 PM
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There are not sprinter setups that take a 32. 28 is about the max.
Sprinters are in the big ring.
Smaller front = more chain tension. Rarely discussed and a real thing.
I do know a few folks in Shimano and have never heard about crushing the commuter and touring market - but I really would not know.
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Old 10-10-16, 07:32 PM
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this gives me a 12/52 to sprint, at 120 cadence it's over 40mph and even with a good lead out I've only ever hit 37mph on flats. I'm a cat 5 with only 2 starts under my belt, keep that in mind.

I'm also 195 lbs and next season, if I can get down to the mid 180s, I'll still need a 34/28 for anything hilly. The overlap on the 34 and 36 is comparable, and I don't know why I wouldn't go for it.

Just to clarify, the DA9000 34T inner ring is only $22, and I already have the 52/36 crankset. IMHO, it's worth the cost of the experiment, and might actually be surprisingly good.
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Old 10-10-16, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
There are not sprinter setups that take a 32. 28 is about the max.
Sprinters are in the big ring.
Smaller front = more chain tension. Rarely discussed and a real thing.
I do know a few folks in Shimano and have never heard about crushing the commuter and touring market - but I really would not know.
1) There most certainly are "sprinter setups" that get a 32, especially when they have dozens or hundreds of miles in the hills to get to that bunch finish. This is an asinine statement and not worth more elaboration.

2) "Smaller front = more chain" tension is also ridiculous, as I will not ever crosschain the 52/28 and certainly ever the 52/32 if that happens, and the short cage RD will happily suck up the slack on a 34 12-28 setup with a 52T big ring: the spec is 33 total and the actual would be 34, hardly outrageous and irrelevant if you don't cross chain the small ring.

3) I don't know anyone who can spin an 11t, and I only know a couple who could use a 12t, regardless of chainring. For the commuter and tourer market, the 46/13 would be plenty high at almost 3:1, and 30T/32t at less than 1:1 is more than most casual commuter/fitness/touring riders need ever in any situation, with acceptable gaps between the gears.
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Old 10-10-16, 07:54 PM
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troll thread
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Old 10-10-16, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ypsetihw View Post
1) There most certainly are "sprinter setups" that get a 32, especially when they have dozens or hundreds of miles in the hills to get to that bunch finish. This is an asinine statement and not worth more elaboration.

2) "Smaller front = more chain" tension is also ridiculous, as I will not ever crosschain the 52/28 and certainly ever the 52/32 if that happens, and the short cage RD will happily suck up the slack on a 34 12-28 setup with a 52T big ring: the spec is 33 total and the actual would be 34, hardly outrageous and irrelevant if you don't cross chain the small ring.

3) I don't know anyone who can spin an 11t, and I only know a couple who could use a 12t, regardless of chainring. For the commuter and tourer market, the 46/13 would be plenty high at almost 3:1, and 30T/32t at less than 1:1 is more than most casual commuter/fitness/touring riders need ever in any situation, with acceptable gaps between the gears.
As Shimano, Campy and SRAM don't have road racer setups that accommodate a 32T rear I discount those setups. You can name those that have them, but other than getting over the mountain to sprint another day, never heard of them.

#2 - OK.

#3 - OK - I do.
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Old 10-10-16, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
troll thread
good eye - me or them?
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Old 10-10-16, 09:45 PM
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my sprint gearing is a 55x44 up front and then a slew of 11t cogs all stacked up in the back
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Old 10-11-16, 05:28 AM
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some of this interests me, trolling aside.

what's the largest cog I can make work on 6700? does a med cage rear derailleur get me to 32 or larger? Once I get there what's the smallest cassette I can also run without swapping chains?

on my climbing bike I'd love to run a 34x25 most of the time but 34x32 (or bigger) on my race wheels for certain races.

Do I need a mountain bike derailleur?
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Old 10-11-16, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by hack View Post
my sprint gearing is a 55x44 up front and then a slew of 11t cogs all stacked up in the back

pfft


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Old 10-11-16, 05:58 AM
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@gsteinb I can probably answer a few of these questions. I have played around a lot with different climbing set-ups.

Your max gear in back is partially controlled be the derailleur and partially controlled by the frame / hanger. All you really need to be able to use a large gear (Like a 32) is for the derailleur pulley to be positioned low enough to clear the cog. One thing you can do is use something like this: RoadLink ? wolftoothcomponents.com which gives you more clearance. Sometimes you can also find a derailleur hanger that fits your bike and has a little more length.

Your chain wrap is the amount of chain that the rear derailleur is capable of keeping in check. That is the 33T capacity (Or 37T capacity on a long cage Shimano). Having too short a cage just means that you can get dangling chain if you shift small-small and and your tooth differences are larger than the capacity.

As for @gsteinb 's climbing bike: I have seen a number of people try to mix a mountain derailleur with a road shifter and it almost never works properly. You will inevitably see problems in the shifting, normally at the higher ranges of tension / lower gears so I don't think it is a good idea for a climbing bike. If you really want to run a 32 I suggest starting off with a long cage road derailleur and trying things out. If that doesn't work, grab a road-link and most likely things will be fine.
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Old 10-11-16, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
I have seen a number of people try to mix a mountain derailleur with a road shifter and it almost never works properly. You will inevitably see problems in the shifting, normally at the higher ranges of tension / lower gears so I don't think it is a good idea for a climbing bike. If you really want to run a 32 I suggest starting off with a long cage road derailleur and trying things out. If that doesn't work, grab a road-link and most likely things will be fine.
I don't play with SRAM at all but my understanding is that all their derailleurs and shifters are interchangeable, at least 10s for 10s, 11s for 11s.

Campy for sure, at least when they made mtb stuff. Plus their front shifters are basically ratcheting shifters so they work with any front derailleur.

Shimano no idea.
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Old 10-11-16, 06:22 AM
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dz nuzz is correct.. for example on my Parlee I can run a 30T max.. my wife madone will run a 32T and it's just because how the RD sits under to clear the cog. A medium derailleur is probably a good idea, but my short cage DA9070 can handle a 32T when called upon. (normally run an 11/28 cassette)
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Old 10-11-16, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
I don't play with SRAM at all but my understanding is that all their derailleurs and shifters are interchangeable, at least 10s for 10s, 11s for 11s.
You are right that in theory they do work (Both use what they call Exact Actuation, which is really just a fancy term for 1:1 movement of cable:derailleur movement) but I have a teammate that did Mt. Washington with a SRAM road / mountain mix and he has said that the shifting just isn't that great. Better than Shimano from what I have seen, but still non-ideal (Admittedly he was using an X-7 derailleur so it is possible that a better derailleur would have fixed things.)
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Old 10-11-16, 06:57 AM
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Since I do not run a compact crankset, when I go to the mountains, I put a Sram WiFli RD on the bike with a 11-32 cassette. That gives me a 39-32 at the low end, which is basically the same as a 34-27. I think Shimano can handle up to 30 or 32 on its regular RDs. If not, you can get a long cage RD to be able to handle the bigger cassette.

If I wanted to go with something like a 40 in the back, I could use the WolfTooth think that Dr. Nuzz referenced with the WiFli RD.

All that said, the shifting on the long cage RD isn't great, and the cassette jumps are huge.
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Old 10-11-16, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
@gsteinb I can probably answer a few of these questions. I have played around a lot with different climbing set-ups.

Your max gear in back is partially controlled be the derailleur and partially controlled by the frame / hanger. All you really need to be able to use a large gear (Like a 32) is for the derailleur pulley to be positioned low enough to clear the cog. One thing you can do is use something like this: RoadLink ? wolftoothcomponents.com which gives you more clearance. Sometimes you can also find a derailleur hanger that fits your bike and has a little more length.

Your chain wrap is the amount of chain that the rear derailleur is capable of keeping in check. That is the 33T capacity (Or 37T capacity on a long cage Shimano). Having too short a cage just means that you can get dangling chain if you shift small-small and and your tooth differences are larger than the capacity.

As for @gsteinb 's climbing bike: I have seen a number of people try to mix a mountain derailleur with a road shifter and it almost never works properly. You will inevitably see problems in the shifting, normally at the higher ranges of tension / lower gears so I don't think it is a good idea for a climbing bike. If you really want to run a 32 I suggest starting off with a long cage road derailleur and trying things out. If that doesn't work, grab a road-link and most likely things will be fine.

thanks, very helpful

Not want so much as need for mount washington and a few other HCs I plan on doing next season. A bunch of people I talked to at App Gap run mountain bike derailleurs (shimano). The guy who beat me there placed really high at mount washington and runs a 36 tooth cog. That seems like overkill to me (34x36), but I guess if he's comfortable spinning an ultra high cadence...I do think that a 34x28 will get kinda grindy in some of those races though.
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Old 10-11-16, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
You are right that in theory they do work (Both use what they call Exact Actuation, which is really just a fancy term for 1:1 movement of cable:derailleur movement) but I have a teammate that did Mt. Washington with a SRAM road / mountain mix and he has said that the shifting just isn't that great. Better than Shimano from what I have seen, but still non-ideal (Admittedly he was using an X-7 derailleur so it is possible that a better derailleur would have fixed things.)
I wondered how they mixed.

Campy's mtb and road stuff mixed well, because the derailleurs were basically the same, just long cage or not. Back in those days (8s Campy) I built up a bike for a customer, a Pederson, and used a combination of road and mtb stuff. His road stuff ended up, with his permission, on my bike.

One thing that affects compatibility is the hub. I have all HED wheels, 10s Campy, but my race wheel requires about a half turn on the barrel adjuster to shift well. Then I put the clincher back on and it's half a turn back. I can probably fix it but it's become a ritual for me, start the race, fiddle with the barrel adjuster, shift back and forth a few times, and then I'm good to go. I don't do it in warm up because no warm up usually, plus at low speeds it works fine.
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Old 10-11-16, 08:21 AM
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On the 10s. I have seen a few 11s cassettes that will fit on a 10s freewheel. RECON appears to. I (junior) have the RECON and we have to space it out when putting on a 11s FW and I had not had the need to put it on a 10s, but teammates have and I recall it worked.
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Old 10-11-16, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ypsetihw View Post
I've searched and read a lot - maybe this post is just to tell you what I'm going to attempt and to log my results for the rest of the web.

What I had: FSA Omega 50/34, BB4000 English - 105 5800 FD/SS RD 105 11-28
Advertised Specs: 16T max drop, 28t max advertised, 33 total tooth max capacity

What I'm running: DA9000 52/36, BB9000 English - 105 5800 FD/SS RD 105 (12-28) (built from 5800 11/-28/12-25)

What I'm going to run: DA9000 52/34, BB9000 English, 105 5800 FD/SS RD 105 12-28 [running 18T drop on 105 5800 FD Mechanical on 105 12-28 cassette, being careful not to crosschain]
Actual Specs: 18T max drop, 28t max advertised, 34 total max capacity

I don't think the 34 tooth total will be an issue at all, especially because I don't cross chain, and never beyond 2 cogs., and I'm sure Shimano designs a cog or two of error into their posted specs. I will have a compact low gear (34/28) and a nearly standard high (52/12), with a crazy range, with over 40mph+ of top end for leadouts and downhills and a modest low gear for climbing. Given this setup, a front change would be accompanied by 4 gears on the cassette, which is more than 1 throw, but doable. I've ready in detail that the new 2015+ 105+ can easily take 18T up front. Carefully conducted, this setup could probably also utilize a 12-32 .

I'm not only certain this can be done, I'm wondering why Shimano doesn't come out with something incredible and drastic, like the 46/30 13-32, which in my opinion, would absolutely crush the commuter and touring market. It could go anywhere and almost NEVER exceed the drivetrain in any situation.
Just go to one of the UK sites and get an 11S Athena triple while such things still exist. Then ignore the 30T front ring unless you really need it and you can keep a tight ratio in the back. You'll have the 11T if you ever are going down a hill with a tailwind and lots in between. Pllus, if anyone ever calls you a Fred for running a triple, you've now got extra motivation to kick their Cat5 ass. The few extra grams aren't really going to matter.
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Old 10-11-16, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
You are right that in theory they do work (Both use what they call Exact Actuation, which is really just a fancy term for 1:1 movement of cable:derailleur movement) but I have a teammate that did Mt. Washington with a SRAM road / mountain mix and he has said that the shifting just isn't that great. Better than Shimano from what I have seen, but still non-ideal (Admittedly he was using an X-7 derailleur so it is possible that a better derailleur would have fixed things.)
Is this modern shimano or 9 speed shimano? If I remember correctly, 9 speed shimano mountain RDs were the last that had the same pull ratio as road RDs. No idea if the pulley width in a 9 spd XTR RD is the same width as an 11 spd road RD.
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Old 10-11-16, 06:56 PM
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I would get a compact crankset and 11-28 cassette (50/11 is higher ratio than 52/12). or you could stay with your current crankset, and get a gs rear derailleur and a 11/12-32 cassette. your front derailleur is optimized such that it shifts optimally for certain sized chainring combinations, eg. 50/34 or 52/36. I've never seen a 52/34, but I would rather not risk it and potentially suffer from worse front derailleur performance. meanwhile, the other setups are proven and will work very well.
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Old 10-11-16, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ypsetihw View Post
I'm not only certain this can be done, I'm wondering why Shimano doesn't come out with something incredible and drastic, like the 46/30 13-32, which in my opinion, would absolutely crush the commuter and touring market. It could go anywhere and almost NEVER exceed the drivetrain in any situation.
That sounds like MTB specs on the crankset which there are plenty, just not used so frequently for road racers.

One thing that you've skipped is the 11T.

Say a 11:28 gives a 1:2.5 ratio.
13:32 gives a little less, about the same as a 11:27.

So, by having a 2 tooth smaller sprocket on the low end, one gets a 5 tooth smaller sprocket on the high end, and can make much tighter gearing throughout the sprocket.

In your case, I don't see a huge benefit for going from the 50/34, 11-28 to the 52/34, 12/28.

Perhaps we'll see smaller chainrings to gain tighter gearing.
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Old 10-11-16, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
I would get a compact crankset and 11-28 cassette (50/11 is higher ratio than 52/12). or you could stay with your current crankset, and get a gs rear derailleur and a 11/12-32 cassette. your front derailleur is optimized such that it shifts optimally for certain sized chainring combinations, eg. 50/34 or 52/36. I've never seen a 52/34, but I would rather not risk it and potentially suffer from worse front derailleur performance. meanwhile, the other setups are proven and will work very well.
My point is that I went to 52/36 because I got a DA9000 crankset and new BB9000 for $150, so it was a no brainer. I will put a 34 on there so I still have all the range of the 34/28 combo but have all the high end of the 52/12. The SS RD will easily handle the 34t total gap/chain slack and the 105 FD will easily handle the 18T drop. If you're that worried, you can get a dog fang chain keeper for $6. Either way, if you don't cross chain, it's a non-issue. RD length has only to do with capacity to take up slack in the chain, and an SS RD can handle even a 40t cassette with a road link and proper setup.

Front shifts are poor compared to the rear anyway in any case with any derailleur, and with that said, the 18T jump is well within the capacity of the FD cage and is going to be fine. Specs are public info for the misinformed so the company doesn't EVER have to deal with blowback, but the capabilities of the front mech are well beyond this and there are tons of people running 18T jumps on DA9000 crankset up front, and even some who have reported 20T with no issues (54/34 chainrings).

When I say I can't spin an 11t, I mean that I can't SPIN it, and spinning while sprinting, to me, means upwards of 140-160rpm or more, which approaches or exceeds 45 mph on a 12t. I have personally registered a max cadence of 188. If you have a sprint, flat out, even with a lead out, at any RPM, that exceeds 45mph, I'd like to see it. You should be racing in the pro cat on the national tour. The 12 is PLENTY for 99.99% of bike riders, and too much for 80% or more riders, especially if you are actually SPINNING (120+ rpm minimum).

My goal is simply to absolutely maximize the range of the gearing, and to show some of you naysayers what is actually possible outside of the "advertised specs" produced by manufacturers. 34 teeth total is easily achievable with a 52/34 12-28 on a 105 SS RD, and gives you HUGE range and massive top end with a reasonably low climbing gear. My speculation on the 32 is that it would be possible, certainly with a GS RD, and would give the recreational rider gearing that couldn't be exceeded under MOST circumstances.

In summary, I agree with DurianRider that almost ALL road bikes have gearing that is MUCH too hard for ALMOST ALL recreational riders, and the trend towards 11t small cogs is simply a holdover from hardman racing in the past. Informed, world class racers are running 32 or even 36 cassettes in the TDF, and even some sprinters at the world class level are sticking with a 12 to allow them lower gears and better spacing in the mid range for getting over the mountains. We are stuck on stupid and we should be demanding more from the manufacturers.
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Old 10-11-16, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Is this modern shimano or 9 speed shimano? If I remember correctly, 9 speed shimano mountain RDs were the last that had the same pull ratio as road RDs. No idea if the pulley width in a 9 spd XTR RD is the same width as an 11 spd road RD.
there is an aftermarket pulley that will allow you to use a shimano 11spd MTB RD with a road 11 spd brifter. even still, the short cage pulley and even long cage pulley can be used with what is generally considered "extreme" cassettes with a simple RoadLink. You can fit up to a 40t cassette with nothing more than a new chain.

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Old 10-11-16, 08:19 PM
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Gonna be that guy: What part of bike racing are we talking about again?
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