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Aero thoughts

Old 12-29-16, 11:44 AM
  #201  
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Do y'all try to setup bikes for UCI compliance or just go with USAC? Now that junior - most likely - won't be doing UCI races for a while I wonder if I want to stay within those restrictions. My philosophy was he was going to have to do them, so get used to them. USA Nationals U23 is UCI, that is about it and he's not doing the TT. The road bike, other than weight, are complaint.

There is a whole bunch of wiggle room for USAC. There used to be even more.
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Old 12-29-16, 11:50 AM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by ygduf View Post
pic?

So many types and different brands have different names for different shapes
USA TT Axel.jpg

TT Felt in Germany.jpg
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
Daniel State TT 2015 2.jpg (102.8 KB, 271 views)
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Old 12-29-16, 12:46 PM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by hack View Post
assuming you don't mind alloy extensions ... the 3Ts can be found new in the $30-40 range if you search online retailers a bit.




Handlebars are one of those things that I don't want to switch over to carbon. I stayed away from a carbon seatpost for a long time, but when I bought my bike last year it came on it. Im sure I might eventually switch to carbon bars, but right now they aren't even on my radar
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Old 12-29-16, 01:00 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Do y'all try to setup bikes for UCI compliance or just go with USAC? Now that junior - most likely - won't be doing UCI races for a while I wonder if I want to stay within those restrictions. My philosophy was he was going to have to do them, so get used to them. USA Nationals U23 is UCI, that is about it and he's not doing the TT. The road bike, other than weight, are complaint.

There is a whole bunch of wiggle room for USAC. There used to be even more.

Not really .. I'm sure my length is close to the UCI max, but I'm also 190cm+ so I understand there is some leeway there? Ultimately, I just fit it to what was comfortable. My setup doesn't look to be too crazy.

Originally Posted by Wylde06 View Post
Handlebars are one of those things that I don't want to switch over to carbon. I stayed away from a carbon seatpost for a long time, but when I bought my bike last year it came on it. Im sure I might eventually switch to carbon bars, but right now they aren't even on my radar
I have alloy on the road bike, but carbon on the TT bike (3T Vola basebars, extensions are alloy). No particular reason other than that was what came on the bike.
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Old 02-06-17, 06:50 PM
  #205  
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Update. Pretty much done. In IAB this may be faster than it was in pure TT bars. No RD as I have two DA-Di2 RDs now, one on MASI and one on Venge so need to share.
Hard to see from this angle but the Power cords allow bending to the head tube.
Bars are 38" wide. Flats are same height as Venge flats, but cockpit in 3cm shorter. I have another option, but I'd like to see how this works first.
Once everything is set, I'll route the Di2 bar end cables inside bars and not under tape. I'll likely used just electrical tape and drop the white/any bar tape - except in the valley around stem as forearm padding.
I may route front brake cable inside bar and straight shot/no housing to TriRig brake. Power Cordz route that way, steel cable does not. However I'm not liking the attachment with the Cordz in the front brake that uses a set screw. I have a knot in the cord and then set screw. Still good enough to send him over the front but not OK for a large rider. In the back of my mind I thought my wife would use it, but cockpit is a bit long for her.

This is a UCI compliant road bike setup (sans tape), vs doing this with a Tri bike which is more aero/not UCI complaint. It is well withing the USAC and UCI margins. Weight is 16.5lbs with the clinchers.
feltmxtt.jpg

Last edited by Doge; 02-06-17 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 02-06-17, 10:24 PM
  #206  
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nah

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Old 02-06-17, 11:08 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
nah

I really think that is beautiful. A really beautiful TT bike.

But you also have 2X the bars in the wind and levers are alone in the wind (vs a draft for the bars).
And... it is not a mass start legal bike.
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Old 02-06-17, 11:16 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I really think that is beautiful. A really beautiful TT bike.

But you also have 2X the bars in the wind and levers are alone in the wind (vs a draft for the bars).
And... it is not a mass start legal bike.
you said faster, not mass start. and the bars aren't in the wind. They are literally exactly in line where the arms go. There is nothing extraneous about the sticks and the pads except the little bit of metal that allows for lateral pad adjustment, while the pictured venge has a fat bar going out to fat hoods that sit above fat drops.

The venge is great yeah, but it's not faster than any respectable tt setup.
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Old 02-06-17, 11:33 PM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
you said faster, not mass start. and the bars aren't in the wind. They are literally exactly in line where the arms go. There is nothing extraneous about the sticks and the pads except the little bit of metal that allows for lateral pad adjustment, while the pictured venge has a fat bar going out to fat hoods that sit above fat drops.

The venge is great yeah, but it's not faster than any respectable tt setup.
This is not a Venge, it is the bike six posts above https://www.bikeforums.net/19277745-post202.html - a respectable TT bike. Faster was in context of this thread by @mattm - road bikes/mass start. This is legal in any mass start USAC or UCI race (got to lose the tape for UCI). The stays and main tubes are UCI min profile, so anything more narrow are not UCI complaint.
As I posted - a non UCI complaint bike/Tri bike could beat this.

BTW Stays are the min 10mm, head tube is 35mm. This does take a regular 11sp wheel and has an external brake.
What is your max/head tube width?

Last edited by Doge; 02-06-17 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 02-07-17, 12:04 AM
  #210  
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save 100W by changing position??
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Old 02-07-17, 07:33 AM
  #211  
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But Doge, is that a -17 stem? Cause Specialized says you need the -17 stem with those bars to maximize aerodynamics.
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Old 02-07-17, 09:33 AM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
save 100W by changing position??
...
No IAB position tested. I would like to see IAB vs TT bar - whole system. Until I finished this thing I was pretty sure the TT bar setup would be faster. But the valley on those bars locks the forearms together. I may just be too difficult to hold.
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Old 02-07-17, 09:42 AM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
But Doge, is that a -17 stem? Cause Specialized says you need the -17 stem with those bars to maximize aerodynamics.
No. -17 would put the rider too low.

Originally Posted by Doge View Post
... In IAB this may be faster than it was in pure TT bars. ... Flats are same height as Venge flats, but cockpit in 3cm shorter.
The focus here is for IAB position and one that has been optimized already. A mass start legal bike, as aero as possible system (including the rider). Maybe a 5 cm taller frame would be better, something that went from stem to TT (without cables) like in top picture in https://www.bikeforums.net/19277745-post202.html, but all the bar situations I'm aware of for mass start have a round center.
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Old 02-07-17, 10:08 AM
  #214  
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Just curious what the objective is for this build. It seems that it'd be less than optimal based on geometry and not all that stiff for non-TT riding. I have the same frame and while it is fine for TT stuff, I find it a bit soft for frequent accelerations. From what I've read, the new Venge is even more aero than the DA and is likely better suited for use as an aero road bike.
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Old 02-07-17, 01:37 PM
  #215  
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So focus is to get a mass start legal IAB focused TT bike. An ideal crit/road bike will usually (at least for junior) have the bar flats are too low and cockpit length too long for optimum IAB position. The seat would normally be further back too. I posted it on this thread because it is a mass start legal AERO bike and I used many of the things we posted about.

The objectives were to support and prioritize racing demands while in college. The thoughts are collegiate MTB is for fun and existing stuff (lower end equipment) will do. Collegiate track,cross and fat tire will be skipped. Collegiate Road will be the priority and only mass start bicycles are allowed for all collegiate events. The TTT is a pretty important collegiate event. A reminder that collegiate cyclists can be ex-pros and national champions. So while certainly pretty cool stuff for a freshman, placing well at Nationals requires the toys as well as the engine.

His 2015 Venge is the multi-purpose collegiate training and road race bike and the old/refurbished MASI is the hill climb/west coast bike that stays in SoCal. Same wheel choices can be used on both collegiate bikes.

This experiment may not work, but it cost me a set of bars, cable housing and some old stock and TT bike part re-purposing.

Last edited by Doge; 02-07-17 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 02-07-17, 01:40 PM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
save 100W by changing position??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVT3Wk_2j5g&t=14s
elbows bent, hands on hoods ftw
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Old 02-07-17, 01:51 PM
  #217  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
elbows bent, hands on hoods ftw
Good reason why higher bars can be more areo than lower ones.
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Old 02-07-17, 01:55 PM
  #218  
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I dig that position but lately I am finding I prefer IAB. Once you get used to it it's quite comfortable.
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Old 02-07-17, 06:46 PM
  #219  
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I've yet to see anyone stick a solo move in IAB and if you ride like that around people you're probably an *******.

I can't imagine anyone succeeding to ride IAB in the valley of that bar Doge posted either. Put your elbows on the stem and you're probably crashing in <20s.
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Old 02-07-17, 07:33 PM
  #220  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
I've yet to see anyone stick a solo move in IAB and if you ride like that around people you're probably an *******.

I can't imagine anyone succeeding to ride IAB in the valley of that bar Doge posted either. Put your elbows on the stem and you're probably crashing in <20s.
I have to agree with Fudgy. I'm OK with IAB when riding solo, or with maybe one or two behind, but not in a field, or even on the front of a field.
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Old 02-07-17, 07:45 PM
  #221  
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I'd never do it in a field, that would be stupid. I've done it solo OTF, before others have bridged up to me though, and the move stuck. I have teammates that use it to great effect pretty often. Is what it is.
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Old 02-07-17, 07:51 PM
  #222  
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I expect that valley will work, I don't know. I'll report back. But we both imagined it. My biggest issue is it is too low.
See 2nd image on https://www.bikeforums.net/19277745-post202.html. That is this bike and body is roughly the same. Those bars he got at age 10 and elbows are close. So it is at least worth a look.

IAB in "Real" races all the time. The kids grew up with it. I think I was clear that that build is for TT's, not road racing, although it is a RR legal bike.
He's done 3 years running IAB position for 30+ min in a TTs and I never heard of an issue. So I was not aware there was one.

Last edited by Doge; 02-07-17 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 02-07-17, 11:57 PM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Run an imaginary line through the humerus and another the head tube axis.
Both bikes are different (long story).
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Old 02-09-17, 12:20 PM
  #224  
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Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
I'd never do it in a field, that would be stupid. I've done it solo OTF, before others have bridged up to me though, and the move stuck. I have teammates that use it to great effect pretty often. Is what it is.
I have had a certain loudmouth yell at me for doing it while on the front of a break (Loudmouth sprinters gonna hate I guess). It is definitely not something to use mid-field or in any case where you need to make sure you are able to hit the brakes quickly. But I have found that with practice I am no more or less stable in that position.
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Old 02-21-17, 08:19 AM
  #225  
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I'm finding myself less and less willing to deal with routing shifter cables (mech, gross) and wanting to convert everything to di2. Anyone figure something sweet out like cinching them from behind the bar to the stem them down behind the head tube to cable stops? Same with rear brake cable?

Also, how did the stem->inside top tube brake cable routing go on that Masi?
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