topflightpro

Minor league baseball players are definitely pro athletes.

As for the NCAA angle, cycling isn't an NCAA sport, so Pro racers can compete in collegiate races.

Doge

I don't know so much about baseball. But if AAA ball is its own end, then yes. My thinking is is is something on the way to something else. They are pros, but a 19 year old AAA seems more pro than an AAA 32 year old. Again - I don't know about baseball.

So for (road) cycling - being on a USA team in late teens and very low 20s on the way to a Euro job, I'd say your pro.
Being on a USA team at 30 something and getting paid, well don't know. Guess you are still pro, but tough life. If you are a women's world ITT champion at 42 - you are a world champion, but also a hard life on your own.

At the technical level I would agree if it says professional on your UCI license, no question. If it says pro on a USA domestic license, it depends.

cold turtle

Someone who races on a pro team.

dmotoguy

This.

Living wage isn't a thing anymore in domestic cycling, it's even eroding in Europe with many teams cheating the min salaries.

If you're racing in pro events on a pro team, you're a pro.

Doge

There are Cat 1 racers on some pro teams. And Cat 1 racers in the Pro Road Tour - even juniors on pro teams on the Pro Road Tour.

Doge

And they did/do. Max age on registration says 35.
My kid was saying one or two got the idea it was less than cool and without being told stopped competing.
That partly lead to my reason for starting this thread. If riders are on a pro team and in college - they can still be pros. I know over half a dozen riders on pro teams who are enrolled in a college this year.

Doge

I was thinking maybe it was this:
ProAthlete.JPG

topflightpro

I have heard that USAC is considering a rule change regarding Pros in college. The last I heard, the proposal is 6 years of total eligibility for collegiate racing and pro years count toward that, e.g. if you do three as a pro, then go to college, you can do three in college.

Collegiate, as it is now, is weird because grad students also comprise a large number of the participants. Right now, one can race four years as an undergrad, go on to become a pro cyclist and race 10 years in the pro ranks, then go back to grad school for a PhD and race six more years of college. Seems kind of crazy to me.

(And I can point to an example of someone who did four years as an undergrad, then did about 10 years as a domestic pro with great success, and is now back in school as a grad student.)

mike868y

on the one hand it is kind of crazy, on the other hand, limiting grad student participation would result in smaller fields (not a problem in the ECCC but in some conference could be a huge problem) and would result in less continuity in the teams as grad students are often the ones responsible for a lot of the organizational work simply because they're there longer.

Doge

It is weird, but not complaining, it is a good learning / figure it out environment. It is also a surprise to me and junior. That solution you mentioned seemed good. I think only a small few are really in the hunt in any race as it seems 3/4 of the field is Cat 3/4 level and maybe 10% are Cat P/1 ish level.
In a crit I watched 2 weeks ago one kid was laped 6 times - and stayed in to finish as that gives points.
The RR end up with a small selection earlier and the gaps are big.

Like any race there is learning to do too to find who those riders are. It is somewhat easier just on appearance due to age and that look.
Then Varsity or Club have not a whole bunch do with ability of riders. Varsity has more paid tuition. The other "unfair" (I am not complaining - it is good learning) is some teams have 6-8 riders and 3-4 very strong ones, while other teams have no strong riders or 1. The CMU and CU coaches research and tell the team how to ride/attack and who to look out for. It is all very different / lopsided.

Edit Part II - On Topic:
A college may offer free tuition, board and room to a bunch of cyclists. Colorado Mesa has a number of "full rides". They may recruit foreign riders. In the case this is a woman, they are likely getting paid MORE than being a pro woman to ride for a college.
OR... finishing college and going to a pro team is a decrease in pay with less support.

furiousferret

I'd wager that there are less than a thousand pro cyclists that make a comfortable wage. Most of them survive off side gigs like coaching, part time work (or even full time) and working in the industry. We have a local club racer who owns a large company and employs a few pro's almost as a favor.

Since the sports financial support is so poor it's unfair to tie a pro with a financial marker.

botto 

incorrect.

Italian investigation claims Italian riders forced to pay to race | Cyclingnews.com

caloso

Wait. Does that mean I could go back for a LLM or PhD and then race collegiate?

Doge

Riders need a union/stronger one. Then union members would be the pros.

mike868y

as long as you're a full time student, yeah

Doge

You could if you are 35 or under. Last year's collegiate ITT champ was an ex-national ITT champ and pro.


Right now the National Collegiate RR registration has the race quality from rider ranking.

Club is stronger (at least now). Div II Predicted Race Quality: 55.73 vs Div I Predicted Race Quality: 56.17 (lower is better).

For comparison.
VOS P1 was 58.11
2016 National Junior 17-18 Crit was 62.43, U23 was 54.13
Dana Point GP - PRT/1 crit is a bit more competitive Predicted Race Quality: 53.94


As the whole naming is off and some big guns have not yet registered (and may not) those numbers may switch.

rubiksoval

Like who? If you are on a pro team, you are not a cat 1. That's just not how it works.

I recently raced a junior on Holowesko Citadel, but he's a cat 2. He's not on the pro team. He's on the jr. devo or whatever team.

There's a difference.

rubiksoval

I raced Brent Bookwalter in college a few times while he was at Lees-Mcrae and on Bissel/Endeavor or whatever their pro team was. He won collegiate nats rr that year. There's always been guys on domestic pro teams racing collegiately.

Not a big deal.

Doge

Cat 1s can guest/race on PRT teams in the USA. They are on the team.

An example would be Giant Berry Farms was a pro team that had junior Adrian Costa on it.

The USAC Rules say:
A UCI Continental Team is made up of a minimum of 8 riders and a maximum of 16 riders. To be registered with USA Cycling, the majority of your riders must have US citizenship (i.e. a UCI code that starts with USA). All riders on the team must have a road category 1 license.

Please note most the USA teams are the same status - UCI Continental Teams - including Rally, Axeon. The World Tour teams and Professional Continental teams we know.

Doge

It is inconsistent with USA Cycling that has age and ability divisions.

Nationals has U23, Cat 1, pros, age based etc.

Collegiate As has ages 17-35 Pros, 1s,2s,3s and 4s all in the same race.
The top division is at the moment not as strong as the 2nd division.
Some teams have paid staff, equipment and 8 members/riders others have 1-2 kids and no support.
Then the labeling and registration Div I (Club)/Div II (Varsity) is flipped.

So I won't value if that is a big deal or not, but I think it needs some work and thought.
I'd dump the pros, and 1s from it. Maybe the 2s as well. And then remove the Varsity/Club designation.

BTW - this is not about my kid. He has the toys and can ride with these guys. But some kids are way over their heads in knowledge, support and ability. I believe that to be less fun and not so good for USAC.

mike868y

where are you finding this 35 year old age limit? i've never seen this before*

*haven't read the rule book.

rubiksoval

I don't get the club/varsity designation.

When I was in college DII was simply a matter of being a smaller school versus DI. It had nothing to do with varsity/club. In fact, I was on a cycling scholarship, we had a coach who recruited, drove us to races, etc. in the van and trailer, all fees and hotels and travel (even meal money) taken care of, kits, some equipment, etc.

DII could race DI at nationals if they desired, and the year after Bookwalter won I think Lees-Mcrae started doing just that. But it wasn't a matter of one field being physically "better" or not. Just the size of the school. I guess DI always sounds better.

But I don't know. I thought it was fine. Bookwalter, Guttenplan, and Gaimon all raced collegiately in the southeast while I was racing. They were all good then and obviously improved quite a bit. I think it can be a big stepping stone in that regard. Of course, they were all legitimate 20-21 year old sophomores and juniors, etc., age/schooling-wise.

I'm not a fan of 30 year old grad students, though. I think it should be restricted to undergrad. Even then you have some ringers come in. My school recruited a previous Canadian national champ and then an Aussie that had been racing well in Europe and both of them came in and won collegiate national titles while a bit older than most students.

rubiksoval

But guest-riding isn't being on the roster. It's being a guest-rider. You're not a pro just because you did one race as a guest-rider. Just like a stagiare in Europe is a stagiare and not on the pro-roster (yet).

I always understood that conti team rule to mean "you can't take a bunch of cat 3s and have a millionaire pay the registration fees and turn them into pros".

I've never understood it to mean "here's a pro team and these two guys are actual pros and everyone else is a cat 1." That just doesn't make any sense.

Registered pro team = pro riders.

globecanvas

A buddy who is a Columbia grad student is now racing age 36 and aged out of collegiate -- raced collegiate A last year but regular USAC category this year.

I know a lot of collegiate racers over the age of 30.

topflightpro

This exact thing is happening in college now. I know of one school that specifically recruited a top domestic pro-racer to be a college student again, despite this person already having a very successful collegiate record as an undergrad. They finished undergrad almost 10 years ago and have only been a pro cyclist since.