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Is it common to give Primes to a chase group?

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Is it common to give Primes to a chase group?

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Old 09-01-17, 08:20 PM
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if you're in a two-man break and the organizer is using field primes to "spice it up" and it ****s the break that sucks. Trust me.
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Old 09-02-17, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by UmneyDurak View Post
Actually this made me think of something. Say prims are for omnium points. There is a small break with one racer in a running, and all the omnium competition is in the pack. If announcer starts doing prims for the field, and not the beak could this be considered cheating and organizer accused of playing favorites.
we have a series where there are two other jerseys with sprints. Each race has two sprints on a hill, and two mid race sprints at the start/finish line. I guess those are on the same laps each race, or at least predetermined laps. I've been in plenty of races where they announce what laps premes will be on so it's not out of the ordinary.

Can we not discuss cheating...it's like giving Doge an advantage to change the subject.
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Old 09-02-17, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
There is a race here where there's a preme every lap.
Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
we have that race too. $10/lap cash. It's fun.

I believe both races are called Dash for Cash. It's a rare meeting of east and west.
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Old 09-07-17, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
Not "common" but it certainly happens. Generally whatever group the bell is rung for gets the prime. But I've seen it happen that the guy keeps ringing the bell even though the break will get the prime, and there are sometimes guys in the pack who don't even know there is a break. It's also common for a pack or chase group prime to not get properly contested because most guys don't know the prime is for them.
The first time this happened I didn't even know the prime was for our group, it just happened to be my turn at the front. The second time I knew but I don't know if all the other guys did.

Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
If the race seems stagnant (in terms of gaps between groups, etc - the riders certainly won't think it's "doing nothing") the promoter or announcer may offer primes to stir the pot a bit. This may be the case if the riders seem resigned to their places, or if one group is obviously stronger than the next.

Another thing is that if the group seem to be well established (break will win, chase won't catch them, field won't catch chase), a nice promoter/announcer may offer some prizes "in advance", effectively rewarding whoever for their work. It's sort of a show of appreciation, like "oh, the chase isn't going to catch the break and 3 riders aren't going to place in the money so let's give them another chance to win something".
Looking back I think we where slowly catching the break and the announcer was trying to give us a push.

It felt like one of the guys in the chase group was not pulling his weight. Any tips for when this happens?
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Old 09-07-17, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JimShep View Post
It felt like one of the guys in the chase group was not pulling his weight. Any tips for when this happens?
This is a tough question. Typically a rider that isn't pulling as hard simply can't contribute as much. However it doesn't mean that the same rider won't have a sprint left at the end. I know this because I'm one such rider. Doing my VO2Max effort pulls at 220-250w won't do much to help any break, but averaging much more than 200w and I won't be able to hang with the break anyway. And I can bridge to a break pretty easily if the break isn't more than 10-12 seconds ahead.

I didn't have a powermeter back then but this is an illustration of such a race. I was at my limit throughout the break and purposely didn't sprint very well at the finish.
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Now, if you have a capable rider that is refusing to pull, that's a different story. When I take off everyone says, "Oh, he's is up there, he'll just blow up" and they actually don't chase and wait for me to blow up. When such a rider is in your group you can probably just increase tempo just a bit and make that rider disappear. But a strong rider... You have to start getting more creative in hurting him.

1. Don't give shelter in crosswinds.

2. Increase pace where it hurts him. If a light climber then increase pace on the downhills, or the flats just after a downhill. Accelerate hard out of turns (using a better jump), forcing the lighter rider to chase for a bit. Try and guess where the rider is weak and focus on those points. Usually lighter riders don't like sharp accelerations so you can take them off the back by drifting off the back, get to the max where you think you can get back on (8-10 seconds?) and if the other rider doesnt go then you can jump hard and bridge back decisively. Try to time it so there's a sharp turn or a big downhill (where the lighter rider has to pedal just to stay with everyone) or some combination of such elements to make your move.

2a. If heavier then make pace changes on the hill. Don't just climb fast, that's steady tempo. You want to go into the climb going super slow, then do a hard surge, then slow when the rider latches on, then surge again. Over and over. Preferably with a cross/tailwind. Make them pull a bit on the flats, either by going too slowly or just pulling off quickly. You can take such a rider a bit off the back before a hill, hit the hill slower, then hit the boosters to quickly bridge across.

3. If the lead is pretty big then you can ease up a bit, force the others to work.

4. If you got away pretty easily then you can sit on the back and wait to get caught. Tell everyone flat out that if everyone doesn't work hard then you refuse to pull. You'll be extremely fresh when you get caught.

I'm sure there's more but that's a list to get you started.
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Old 09-07-17, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
get to the max where you think you can get back on (8-10 seconds?)

8-10 seconds? I've never seen anyone in a break yo-yo 8-10 seconds off of it and get back on.
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Old 09-07-17, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
8-10 seconds? I've never seen anyone in a break yo-yo 8-10 seconds off of it and get back on.
lol

I was going to say, "okay, those of you in breaks probably think 20-30 seconds, and for me it's 20-50 meters..."

I remember at Bethel (so 2014? probably not 2015) gsteinb and a rival both trying to get behind the other and eventually drifting about 30-35 seconds off the back of the field. Finally they decided to bring their quarrel to the front, chased back on, and I think gsteinb duly won, or something like that. I thought for sure their race was over when they were so far off the back but it didn't take them long to get on, and everyone else was racing like normal, it wasn't like everyone else stopped racing to see what would happen.

For me it was probably about 10-15 seconds that was fatal and it was in a non-race. I was unable to do anything in a small lead group at Gimbels and a guy that would get 3rd at M35 Nationals got sick of it. When he got to the back (and I was on his wheel) he drifted off the back until the other guys were basically out of sight on the stretch of road we were on (section shortly after the first set of hills, the curving fast bit), and he rocketed back up to them. He totally schooled me by the book and as it happened I knew what he was doing but was powerless to do anything about it.

I agree that in a crit 8-10 seconds is long. Maybe 2-4 seconds would be more accurate, but I think to saw off a determined and strong rider would take more than that.
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Old 09-07-17, 09:48 PM
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I never see guys get taken off the back very far. Maybe a few bike lengths but someone gives in quickly. The only time I've seen it happen was 2 guys trying to take me off the break. I ended up attacking them and they never got back on. That was a 3/4 race though. I doubt they ever tried that move again.
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Old 09-08-17, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
both trying to get behind the other and eventually drifting about 30-35 seconds off the back of the field
Cmon. 30 seconds would be out of sight at Bethel. That would be a serious commitment to taking somebody off the back.
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Old 09-08-17, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
Cmon. 30 seconds would be out of sight at Bethel. That would be a serious commitment to taking somebody off the back.
They were crossing the start finish as the (M45+) field was way down by turn 2. The two were arguing or whatever, soft pedaling and not going hard at all. I thought for sure they'd thrown away their own personal races to make some kind of a point. I'm pretty sure the gap was 30 or 35 seconds max. gsteinb may have a gap time/idea, I may have some notes or something somewhere. I figure gstein must have posted here about it and I must have responded about the whole incident as it was very puzzling to watch it happen and in a few laps it was like it never happened at all.

In the 3-4 race after that I was trailing the other guy, and for whatever reason (because he was at the back of the field?) got on his wheel. He eased up a bit, I wasn't paying attention, and suddenly we were off the back (in my eyes). He was comfortably pedaling along about 20 feet behind the rest of the field, not concerned at all, even though it was strung out and single file. He latched back on later in the lap and when he started to ease I went around him. I didn't want to be stranded off the back because even following a chase back on would be really hard.

That race (3:40 for the guy easing at the back):
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Old 09-08-17, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
Cmon. 30 seconds would be out of sight at Bethel. That would be a serious commitment to taking somebody off the back.
yeah, I don't recall the situation at all but no way it was 30 seconds.
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Old 09-08-17, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
Cmon. 30 seconds would be out of sight at Bethel. That would be a serious commitment to taking somebody off the back.
east coast seconds
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Old 09-10-17, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
This is a tough question.

...

I'm sure there's more but that's a list to get you started.
To add one:

If you are in the rotation before your intended target you can also pull off but not entirely ease off the gas. Keep doing about 80% of what you were doing before and force the rider behind you to ride past you and then pull off. It is a really dirty but effective tactic that I have used before and I have had used on me. Even when you think it is happening to you it is very difficult to tell.
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Old 09-10-17, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
To add one:

If you are in the rotation before your intended target you can also pull off but not entirely ease off the gas. Keep doing about 80% of what you were doing before and force the rider behind you to ride past you and then pull off. It is a really dirty but effective tactic that I have used before and I have had used on me. Even when you think it is happening to you it is very difficult to tell.
Been dropped because of this. Ended up positioned behind the lightest, smallest guy in the conference. One of only a few people I've ever met that I struggle to draft off of. I've heard the tactic called gatekeeping.
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Old 09-10-17, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
To add one:

If you are in the rotation before your intended target you can also pull off but not entirely ease off the gas. Keep doing about 80% of what you were doing before and force the rider behind you to ride past you and then pull off. It is a really dirty but effective tactic that I have used before and I have had used on me. Even when you think it is happening to you it is very difficult to tell.
I hate this - I feel like a lot of guys do this on accident.. or maybe they're smarter than I think and are trying to hurt me!

When I pull off, I coast or soft-pedal. Mostly to save my own energy.

If I want someone out of the break, I'd attack the break (from the back, right when they pull off the front)
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Old 09-10-17, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
I hate this - I feel like a lot of guys do this on accident.. or maybe they're smarter than I think and are trying to hurt me!

When I pull off, I coast or soft-pedal. Mostly to save my own energy.

If I want someone out of the break, I'd attack the break (from the back, right when they pull off the front)
What I like to do when people **** up the paceline like that is just slide behind their wheel. It makes people real angry, but they learn quick. Especially if you do it in training rides with that one guy.

It took our team two seasons to break a teammate of his bad surging habit, but before I left he was finally getting to be a smooth rider.
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Old 09-10-17, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
To add one:

If you are in the rotation before your intended target you can also pull off but not entirely ease off the gas. Keep doing about 80% of what you were doing before and force the rider behind you to ride past you and then pull off. It is a really dirty but effective tactic that I have used before and I have had used on me. Even when you think it is happening to you it is very difficult to tell.
Ugh I also feel like ppl do this by accident. But if there is a cross wind or I concentrate on keeping a super tight paceline its not quite so bad. If its a single line it doesn't work as well. I just flat out tell them ill come around if they slow down. Rotating pacelines always hurt me though.
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Old 09-10-17, 05:45 PM
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This is how TT riders pop other TT riders
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Old 09-10-17, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
To add one:

If you are in the rotation before your intended target you can also pull off but not entirely ease off the gas. Keep doing about 80% of what you were doing before and force the rider behind you to ride past you and then pull off. It is a really dirty but effective tactic that I have used before and I have had used on me. Even when you think it is happening to you it is very difficult to tell.
I am having a hard time figuring out what this means for some reason. Can someone draw a diagram or something for me?
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Old 09-10-17, 06:00 PM
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It means in a rotating paceline, when you pull off, don't back off the pace and make the guy coming through work hard to rotate off.

I've had it done to me. It wears me out. I don't think I've ever done it because I generally want to get to the back of the draft ASAP.
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Old 09-10-17, 06:08 PM
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Ah got it. So one little sprint to get off and another one to get back on.
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Old 09-10-17, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
Ah got it. So one little sprint to get off and another one to get back on.
Not sure you got it? The gatekeeping tactic means pull off the front but then basically ride next to the next guy (the target) so he can't pull off. He then has to work even harder at the end of his pull to get ahead of you so he can pull off. Or he can softpedal to try to get behind you and everybody yells.
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Old 09-10-17, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
Not sure you got it? The gatekeeping tactic means pull off the front but then basically ride next to the next guy (the target) so he can't pull off. He then has to work even harder at the end of his pull to get ahead of you so he can pull off. Or he can softpedal to try to get behind you and everybody yells.
Yes, I meant that he has to accelerate once to get ahead of you and then accelerate again to get back on the paceline. So two 'sprints.'

I thought gatekeeping was staying at the back of the paceline, but I don't really know much.
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Old 09-10-17, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz View Post
To add one:

If you are in the rotation before your intended target you can also pull off but not entirely ease off the gas. Keep doing about 80% of what you were doing before and force the rider behind you to ride past you and then pull off. It is a really dirty but effective tactic that I have used before and I have had used on me. Even when you think it is happening to you it is very difficult to tell.
not me. if they don't ease up I start drifting back ASAP. No ****ing way.

@mattm tell dave I know he does this and I always knew! only in races where I wasn't going to do any better than end of the break I was already in I would just accept it.
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Old 09-13-17, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
@mattm tell dave I know he does this and I always knew! only in races where I wasn't going to do any better than end of the break I was already in I would just accept it.
Just saw this - I wonder.. he might just be pushing too hard because he's too damn strong for his own good.
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