spectastic

I didn't think I'd like using kickr, because I have had trainers and rollers before. While I would keep telling myself that I would use them, I never actually do, because without readily available feedback and easily adjustable resistance, they feel like a complete waste of time, which I don't have. But I've been trying out a friend's flywheel kickr, and that thing is awesome! I've only done 2 workouts on it so far, and I already think I might be getting one for myself. I'll probably go for the Elite - Turbo Muin II though, because that's more budget friendly than kickr.

Reasons for getting it:
-good targeted workouts without having to worry about shifting, traffic, hills terrain etc. just you, power, cadence, and the countdown clock
-goes along with the previous point and could even be a reason against it, but I'm fully focused on the numbers, and nothing else. I'd thought I'd listen to audio books, but that just not happening with the high IF interval workouts.
-good for times when the weather, temperature, time of day, traffic conditions aren't ideal

Reasons against getting it:
-I already have a power meter that I can use on the road
-seems more useful as an offseason tool, because the winter days are short, cold and wet. during summer time, the trainer might not see a whole lot of use, and I hate having expensive pieces of equipment lying around unused.
-subscriptions for zwift, trainerroad, etc are required (although I can probably split the cost with teammate)

So I'm wondering what people's experiences have been with smart trainers. do you use it. how often. what are the pros/cons.

Ygduf

I don't use mine often (only when it rains, really) but I do like it. Makes 2x20 or whatever easier when you can forget about maintaining power and just focus on spinning and knowing that if you're turning the cranks, you're on your power number.

Super consistent and efficient. I really like it.

hubcyclist

I have the cycleops hammer and I just love it, and in fact used it more often than not even last summer. I use zwift, but I'm really into trainerroad and their workouts in erg mode, as I probably say too often lol Erg mode is totally worth it for me because with a dumb trainer, I'd have a hard time settling in on power targets and a comfortable cadence (downside of having an 8 speed lol). I've kind of accepted for myself that riding outside will have to be just for fun, because I have a really hard time working out successfully where I live (takes a bit to get out to the more open, uninterrupted stretches of road, undulating terrain makes it hard to maintain in a good power range, etc). I'm really in my best shape ever because of having a smart trainer, mainly because it motivates me to do the hard workouts and allows me to do them successfully.

jacksonhandy

As others have said, I love my Kickr Snap, which is cheaper than the regular Kickr. The ERG mode is the best part for me, making sure that I hit and hold power targets. In the summer, I don't use it nearly as much, because I like being outside, but during the short winter days, it is awesome.

You don't really need the subscription, because I think the Wahoo phone app will allow you to build a workout and utilize the erg mode. I'm not 100% on that.

akdmx

One factor to consider is that (as far as I'm aware) all direct drive trainers are "smart" and direct drive is better than wheel-on in any nearly any regard.

And yea erg mode is nice

spectastic

i know tire wear is one factor, but that's easily mitigated by using cheap tires and rear wheel. road feel is another one i suppose. other than that, what other advantages are there? the wheel on roller trainers have erg mode too right? so long as that's there, I'm ok with it.

Also, I'm only really looking into the smart trainer for the erg mode. the zwift watopia stuff looks neat, but it's pretty pointless, and I can see that thing getting old real fast. much rather listen to a podcast if the duration gets long.

Also, do you guys train in the position that you're racing in? I find myself reaching for the tops whenever the going gets a little tough. but I feel like adapting to the suffering while in an aero position would translate well to a race situation. what do y'all think?

Ygduf

I only ever ride my TT bike on the trainer. If I have a tt coming up I'm doing it in the tt position. If I'm just killing a day because it's raining, I'll do some TT until it gets hard then switch it up a bit.

Would be better to stick to tt position all the time, but I'm not dedicated enough to do that.

rubiksoval

Smart trainer has made a big difference in riding Zwift, for me.

I'm not quite sure why, but I got dropped all the time in Zwift races on my regular trainer, but do pretty well when on the smart trainer.

I still don't really do workouts, even with erg mode, though I did a few this winter. But I ride my smart trainer 4-5x more than I rode my regular trainer, so it's gotten me training more. So that's a big plus. And I've gotten way more intensity in than ever before, which is a big plus, too. So it's been worth it for me in regards to leading to more training and better training. I likely won't touch it in another few weeks, though, when there's warmth and sunlight again. Unless there's some crazy storming or something.

furiousferret

Like you I'm on the fence. During the winter getting in intervals over 20 minutes is hard because of lights, traffic, and the mountains being too cold to ride. I also don't mind Zwift as much as I thought. It may get boring, but I've played solitaire for 20 years so my standards are pretty low.

Ttoc6

I use my kickr nigh on every day of the week. Even in the summer to force my recovery rides to actually be recovery. I had a snap before and struggled to like the erg mode on it because it was slow to adjust. My kickr's erg is muchhhh better.

Heathpack 

Not really a trainer-specific question and I don’t have a smart trainer so what am I even doing in the thread?...

But the answer is yes, 100% your training position should reflect your racing position as a rule. Likely more important for TTs than anything else, but if I’m doing a TT workout the point is to get it done in TT position. Sure I could sit up and make it easier, but the idea is not to produce X power. The idea is to produce X power in race position.

ancker

I've had a Tacx Neo since Nov 2015. I ride it more than outside. It's sad, but true. Getting an hour workout in takes a total of 1:10, including shower, indoors. Outside it's at least 1:45 when you factor in kitting up, riding out of town, workout, back home, put everything away, peel off my kit, and shower. Makes a huge difference when getting it in during the work day. (Working from home is a plus.) I'll ride indoors on an otherwise perfect weather day just due to time constraints. It sucks, but it's better than no ride.

I'm on the tops more than I should, but really it's about switching up hand positions so I move around quite a bit.

I subscribe to Zwift but other than a few races, it's been 100% workout/erg mode. Being able to log into Zwift, select the workout my coach prescribed as imported from Training Peaks and go is awesome. I also subscribe to the Sufferfest app. If I need to do anything lengthy, I'll do a Sufferfest workout. Zwift gets super boring after about an hour. I've done 3 hour Sufferfest videos (and completed a Knighthood, 10+hours) and boredom is never a factor. Every bit of this is in Erg mode.

Also, as mentioned above. Recovery/Z2 rides are actually that with erg mode. I've _never_ been able to accomplish a recovery ride outside.

therhodeo

I don't believe when AI takes over it with be a open assault on humanity. I think the machines are more clever than that and a smart trainer with nefarious intent would be the perfect way to get to me.

spectastic

cool. I'll hold out for a while, until I sell my cross bike and the rollers.

dz_nuzz

I want to weigh in as well! Stupid work has eaten up all my BF time. Anyways here are my thoughts after having a Neo for two seasons:

Pros
*As stated above it makes long intervals at a constant wattage much easier, you can just keep pedaling.
*Makes for interesting ways to test yourself, I haven't done a ramp test but I have set some of my best indoor power numbers (and overall power numbers) while using erg mode to force myself to do my exact plan
*Makes Zwift much more immersive
*Workout consistently is a beautiful thing

Cons
*You are still inside
*Connectivity/dropout issues can be horrible if you are in erg mode. If your trainer misses the data packet that takes you off of a hard interval.....
*Erg mode may de-train your ability to hit targets outside in the real world, it does teach you how to calibrate your RPE scale far better but gear selection is something I tend to mess up a bit when I head back outside.

ShutUpLegs

I've owned a kickr but sold it in favor of my E-Motion Rollers and here's why. My opinion was the ERG mode is the both the best and worst attribute of the smart trainer. Best because you can set it and always hit the targeting number, worst because of this exact same reason. In my opinion you lose the mental aspect when using ERG, meaning you don't have to think about it and I think when you go out and do those efforts on the road its mentally harder to maintain. Sure physically you should have no problems but people often forget how mentally taxing it can be. This is why I sold my kickr and now solely use my rollers.

Ygduf

This is interesting. There is no right answer, but my view couldn't be more different.

I find that the erg mode allows me to focus on spin (fall under cadence on erg mode and it suuuucks) and achieve the training benefits. When I go outside I find the spin comes _more_ naturally, which gives me easier outdoor power and more mind-space to consider all the other **** going on in a race or race-ride.

Radish_legs

I'm level 21 on Zwift.

I have a kickr 2. It's a huge tool for me. I do a lot of structured workouts. I also do group rides on zwift and sometimes races. I've done power PRs on zwift.

burnthesheep

I own a meter and a Cycleops Fluid 2. I use that setup at home.

At work, we work for a ****** Danish company that digs cycling, so the gym has Cycleops 400 Pro bikes with powertap.

So, here's my take on both having done my training rides in all three environments:

Outdoors:
I feel like this is the best way to do something like "peak and fade" intervals. I also feel it's the best for "endurance miles" with some steady state thrown in. Otherwise, try doing under/overs on the road. LOL. Unless you have a rock steady 15min climb, not happening.

The fluid trainer:
I got the setup cheap on Craigslist used. I got the trainer, mat, skewer, and climbing block for under $100. This setup at home I have to use a crap box fan. It's a "stopgap" workout method when I can't use the gym. The "road feel" is total crap, IMO. Doesn't feel realistic at all. But, I can memorize my workout or put it on a stickey note and watch the power/cadence and time and crank out a workout per the plan. Also, power on this setup is always easily down about 20w across the board versus outdoors or the gym.

The Cycleops 400 Pro:
For prescribed workouts, the best of all 3 for me. The only interval it's not good for is peak/fades. The big flywheel makes the road feel about 100% better than the fluid. Not perfect or ideal vs. an electronic direct drive, but better. I use the Rouvy/Cycleops app with it so I don't have to flip screens on the computer. I also like that I can torque that thing around or climb on it without worrying about destroying a carbon frame in a fluid trainer.

The only fault of the 400 Pro is that it doesn't have gears or a setup that you could really use for Zwift. The gears on your bike on the fluid are one plus over the 400 Pro. That thing does NOT like it if you rapidly change your cadence. It'll swing erg mode all over the place. Whereas a fluid you don't have to worry, you have gears.

I think the direct drive models out there using your own bike with gears is probably the best.

TheKillerPenguin

I find the same thing occurs with a dumb trainer as well, since you can essentially select your gear and turn off your brain. My workout yesterday was outside and felt awfully weird and surgey for the first couple of repeats until I got used to it, and even then I failed prematurely mostly due to mental fatigue.

TheKillerPenguin

I disagree, it's very doable on flat and rolling ground, and being able to do this outside has more real world benefit to it than does the trainer. I realize this is off thread topic but you would be well-served by trying to do this work on the road when weather and traffic conditions allow for it.

burnthesheep

I've tried. I'm not someone good enough at this yet to manage to hold 250w +/- a few then move up to 280w +/- a few over rolling windy farmland without having it fluctuate too much. When I tried, for example, I'd see it fluctuate over 20w. Just part of how it is? Maybe.

Part of it is that I just prefer to have more of an enjoyment factor on the outdoor rides. Either enjoying the roll through the farms, or enjoying hammering around town on some hills with a group for fun.

I can manage pace/output if it's my turn to pull pretty well, now. I've gotten in enough pulls to do better.

jsk

With a wheel-on trainer, if you want to get consistent power numbers you need to make sure that the tire pressure and roller pressure are consistent. No need to worry about that with a direct-drive. Also you don't have to worry about tire slipping under hard efforts with a direct drive.

I think this might depend on how much of your training is indoors vs outdoor. I do most of my training outdoors when I can. For me, the trainer is for bad weather days, and specific types of interval workouts where the precision of erg mode makes them easier to do.

So when I'm on the trainer, it's about fitness pure and simple. I'm not training my bike position, because even with the exact same fit, riding indoors just isn't the same. While the saddle height and setback are the same on my trainer bike, I have a shorter/taller stem so that I'm riding a bit more upright. This makes for more effective cooling with a fan indoors, in my experience.

spectastic

on the point of being able to hold power in real life, I'm not understanding the use of that in outdoors riding, unless we're talking time trialing, or being off the front solo. in every other situation, the race is probably going to be dynamic, not steady. the benefit of the erg mode for me is purely for fitness, targeting the zones that need to be targeted, irrespective of RPE. I feel like I got enough bike handling and group riding skills to be savvy in those areas.

and yea, I think I've yet to do a proper ftp test outside. maybe if I manage to find a piece of road that's flat enough and long enough... but then there's the matter of making the 1-2 hour effort to even get out there, when I would rather use that time to get some workouts in.

furiousferret

I'm torn between the Elite Direto and eTap for my birthday gift.

If the employees didn't eat so many danishes they wouldn't need a gym!