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Increased ability to burn fat instead of carbs = increased FTP?

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Increased ability to burn fat instead of carbs = increased FTP?

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Old 05-09-18, 01:59 AM
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baribari
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Increased ability to burn fat instead of carbs = increased FTP?

I could have sworn I read something like this in an article or a book, but I can't remember where it is from.

Does anyone have a citation for this factoid?

I think it means that if you increase the power at which you can burn fat instead of carbs, your FTP will also go up.
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Old 05-09-18, 03:40 AM
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You're not saying it right.
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Old 05-09-18, 10:27 AM
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I think he is saying it right.

If you look at FTP as wHr of power, increasing mitochondrial density and ability to metabolize fat with O2 means you can produce more watts for the hour. Don't think there's a way to really increase liver glycogen or glycogen burn rate.
@echappist should set us all straight.
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Old 05-09-18, 11:02 AM
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Base training (those long, lower intensity rides just at/under aerobic threshold aka ventilatory threshold 1) increases mitochondrial density. More mitochondria = more fat burning capacity. But the mitochondria are also key to lactate clearance, which has a big effect on FTP/MLSS. I first read about this in Thomas Chapple's Base Building for Cyclists, but I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere.

I can definitely say that long steady Z2 rides during the base season have helped increase my FTP.
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Old 05-09-18, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jsk View Post
Base training (those long, lower intensity rides just at/under aerobic threshold aka ventilatory threshold 1) increases mitochondrial density. More mitochondria = more fat burning capacity. But the mitochondria are also key to lactate clearance, which has a big effect on FTP/MLSS. I first read about this in Thomas Chapple's Base Building for Cyclists, but I'm sure it's been discussed elsewhere.

I can definitely say that long steady Z2 rides during the base season have helped increase my FTP.
Hmm. I would have thought sweet spot training would have a bigger affect, hour per hour, if only because maintaining Z2 for a long time is relatively easy, but maintaining ~95% of FTP is relatively hard for more than a few minutes...

Should you not do much too Z2 base after some point (build period?)?
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Old 05-09-18, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
I think he is saying it right.

If you look at FTP as wHr of power, increasing mitochondrial density and ability to metabolize fat with O2 means you can produce more watts for the hour. Don't think there's a way to really increase liver glycogen or glycogen burn rate.
@echappist should set us all straight.
I was thinking maybe the idea was that burning fat took less O2 per watt generated. I might be totally off, though.
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Old 05-09-18, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by baribari View Post
I was thinking maybe the idea was that burning fat took less O2 per watt generated. I might be totally off, though.
No, fats require more oxygen - but unless you are near VO2max oxygen delivery isn't really limiting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respir...exchange_ratio

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient

High FatMax improves long endurance much more than FTP.
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Old 05-09-18, 06:50 PM
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The only thing that's increased my ftp is stuff above ftp.

Last year I built up to doing 3 hours of sweetspot at 89% ftp and that didn't help, but doing 5-6 min repeats at 115-118% helped tremendously.

Could be highly dependent on each person and their previous training, however. And there's typically more than one way to do many things.

I very rarely do any type of z2 rides over an hour, so the traditional "base" of 3-5 hours at z2 is a total waste for me, and boring as hell anyway, so no way I even bother with it at this point in my life.
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Old 05-09-18, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
No, fats require more oxygen - but unless you are near VO2max oxygen delivery isn't really limiting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respir...exchange_ratio

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient

High FatMax improves long endurance much more than FTP.
Is the FTP of a trained athlete a relatively high percentage of VO2 max, or a relatively low percentage? Or am I thinking of something else entirely? Like VO2 max being a relatively high percentage of max power.
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Old 05-09-18, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
The only thing that's increased my ftp is stuff above ftp.

Last year I built up to doing 3 hours of sweetspot at 89% ftp and that didn't help, but doing 5-6 min repeats at 115-118% helped tremendously.

Could be highly dependent on each person and their previous training, however. And there's typically more than one way to do many things.

I very rarely do any type of z2 rides over an hour, so the traditional "base" of 3-5 hours at z2 is a total waste for me, and boring as hell anyway, so no way I even bother with it at this point in my life.
If Im going to do 3+ on the bike its going to be for fun.

I could have sworn that cranking up the difficulty of my Zwift workouts, which put me at higher percentages of FTP, had almost overnight results.

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Old 05-10-18, 12:30 PM
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I think the answer depends on how you go about increasing the fat adaption, if you are using diet for say keto or carb depletion then the fat adaption likely comes at the expense of glycogen dependant power production. If you are increasing fat adaption using long base or intermittent fasting rides during base then the % contribution of fat could potential increase your FTP, the percentage contribution at FTP is likely <10% so its probably not going to make much of difference, where it makes a bigger difference is in glycogen sparing in the Z2 range.
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Old 05-10-18, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by baribari View Post
Hmm. I would have thought sweet spot training would have a bigger affect, hour per hour, if only because maintaining Z2 for a long time is relatively easy, but maintaining ~95% of FTP is relatively hard for more than a few minutes...
I never said long Z2 was the only (or even best) way to increase your FTP. But there are physiological adaptions that this type of training produces, that you won't get from training at higher intensities. Basically what the book I referenced above is saying, is that a well structured base training phase will lay the foundation for other types of adaptations that come after.

Should you not do much too Z2 base after some point (build period?)?
Yeah that why I mentioned doing this type of training during base phase. I do much less of it after that, although I try to get a longer ride in at least every 3-4 weeks to maintain my endurance base.
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Old 05-18-18, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by baribari View Post
Hmm. I would have thought sweet spot training would have a bigger affect, hour per hour, if only because maintaining Z2 for a long time is relatively easy, but maintaining ~95% of FTP is relatively hard for more than a few minutes...
Read the Training Bible.
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Old 05-18-18, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Read the Training Bible.
I have a copy of the 4th edition but I have found it kind of hard to read.... plus it's really thick.

It seems to me that most of the book is about peaking and periodiziation, which isn't relevant to me since I don't race yet (still in training, trying to learn how to suffer).

What parts are most useful if you just want to get fast as fast as possible?
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Old 05-21-18, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by baribari View Post
Is the FTP of a trained athlete a relatively high percentage of VO2 max, or a relatively low percentage? Or am I thinking of something else entirely? Like VO2 max being a relatively high percentage of max power.
Yes, a highly trained athlete not only has a high VO2 max power, but an FTP that is a high % of the VO2 max power.

As an example, a sweet spot workout might be 4 x 12 minutes at 95-98% FTP, whereas a VO2 max workout might be 6 x 3 minutes @ 120% FTP. A well trained athlete should find both interval sessions equally challenging.

If you lack muscle endurance, you'll find the sweet spot workouts to be more challenging. If you lack the lungs, you'll find the VO2 max workout to be more challenging.
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Old 05-21-18, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by baribari View Post
I don't race yet (still in training, trying to learn how to suffer).

What parts are most useful if you just want to get fast as fast as possible?
Forget get the book,.....your quickest way of learning how to suffer is entering a race. Do 3 crits and then pop open the book, it will make more sense and give you a better understanding of what your homework needs to be.
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Old 05-21-18, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
The only thing that's increased my ftp is stuff above ftp.

Last year I built up to doing 3 hours of sweetspot at 89% ftp and that didn't help, but doing 5-6 min repeats at 115-118% helped tremendously.

Could be highly dependent on each person and their previous training, however. And there's typically more than one way to do many things.

I very rarely do any type of z2 rides over an hour, so the traditional "base" of 3-5 hours at z2 is a total waste for me, and boring as hell anyway, so no way I even bother with it at this point in my life.
Everyone's different, but in your case as a CAT 1, I think you're the exception rather than the rule.
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Old 05-21-18, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by colombo357 View Post
Everyone's different, but in your case as a CAT 1, I think you're the exception rather than the rule.
I'd say it's more likely an issue of doing something until it doesnt work anymore, and then doing something different. Alternate the stimulus to force the body to keep adapting. Same principles apply to cat 5s, too.
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Old 05-21-18, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by baribari View Post
I have a copy of the 4th edition but I have found it kind of hard to read.... plus it's really thick.

It seems to me that most of the book is about peaking and periodiziation, which isn't relevant to me since I don't race yet (still in training, trying to learn how to suffer).
Read the section(s) on Nutrition, one or two chapters at most.

What parts are most useful if you just want to get fast as fast as possible?
Man, I wish there were shortcuts for this stuff!! Let me know if you find any.
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Old 05-21-18, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by KDTX View Post
Forget get the book,.....your quickest way of learning how to suffer is entering a race. Do 3 crits and then pop open the book, it will make more sense and give you a better understanding of what your homework needs to be.
Well, I did one crit which I thought was a flat course but it ended up having a pretty steep climb, and I blew up so fast I gave up after one lap.

OTOH, there were no ability level groups, and there were collegiate racers there, so it was the equivalent of doing a Cat 1/2/3 race as Cat 5.....with 70 pounds of excess weight.

I weigh less now.... but I'm going to try something flat first.
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Old 05-21-18, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
Read the section(s) on Nutrition, one or two chapters at most.
Will do.... still need to lose 40 pounds though.


Man, I wish there were shortcuts for this stuff!! Let me know if you find any.
What I mean is going from couch potato (2.0 watts/kg) to 3.5+ watts\kg as quickly as possible, not going from 4.0 to 5.0 LOL
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Old 05-22-18, 07:47 AM
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Some of you guys need an account over on the Slowtwitch triathlon forums. This would go over well over there.

Andy Coggan frequents the forums along with a few other brainiac types.
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Old 05-22-18, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post

Andy Coggan frequents the forums along with a few other brainiac types.
To me it seems people like to argue with him about defining FTP, yet I don't think any of them have any real academic/research credentials
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Old 05-22-18, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
I'd say it's more likely an issue of doing something until it doesnt work anymore, and then doing something different. Alternate the stimulus to force the body to keep adapting. Same principles apply to cat 5s, too.
I'd agree with that.

Out of curiosity, are you a good 40K TT rider?

I can imagine that a CAT1 who can hold 100% FTP for nearly an hour will find subthreshold intervals to be much easier than, say, someone like myself.
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Old 05-22-18, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by colombo357 View Post
I'd agree with that.

Out of curiosity, are you a good 40K TT rider?

I can imagine that a CAT1 who can hold 100% FTP for nearly an hour will find subthreshold intervals to be much easier than, say, someone like myself.

no.

hurt is hurt. that phrase "it never get's easier you just get faster" is a lot of bull**** in regards to racing, but it's spot on for intervals.
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