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Recovery drink: Whey, Glutamine, Creatine "dose" questions

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Recovery drink: Whey, Glutamine, Creatine "dose" questions

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Old 08-29-18, 10:17 AM
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Recovery drink: Whey, Glutamine, Creatine "dose" questions

I drink a recovery drink after any workout or ride that has a "hard" element to it, which basically for me means almost every ride since I rarely do recovery rides. I am not 100% convinced its necessary but I'm a 52 yo woman and recovery is something I really need to maximize.

The big con to the recovery drinks is the calories.

I originally made my own drinks from a base of 12oz skim milk (12.5 gm protein, whey and casein) plus 10 gm of whey protein isolate to yield 22.5 gm, which is a dose of 0.5 gm/kg for me. I add other ingredients such that the end result if 50-60 gm carbs, shooting for 2-3x gm carbs per gm protein.

A while back, I started adding 5gm of glutamine. I wasn't sure if the glutamine, being an amino acid, was supposed to some out of the total protein allotment or not. But for lack of knowing for sure what to do, I cut the whey protein by 5gm when I added the glutamine,

Today I ordered some more whey protein isolate and glutamine and I earned a bonus 0.5 lb package of creatine. Read up on that, sounds reasonable to try since its free and it looks like they're sending me enough to last me a decent amount to time to see if it makes a difference.

So now my question becomes: do I cut the whey protein isolate out entirely to go with 12.5 gm protein from the skim milk + 5 gm glutamine + 4-5 gm creatine to give me a total dose of 22ish gm "protein"? I'm just not sure if these partial proteins/amino acids "count" when you read that the optimal post workout protein dose is 0.5 gm/kg.
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Old 08-29-18, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
I drink a recovery drink after any workout or ride that has a "hard" element to it, which basically for me means almost every ride since I rarely do recovery rides. I am not 100% convinced its necessary but I'm a 52 yo woman and recovery is something I really need to maximize.

The big con to the recovery drinks is the calories.

I originally made my own drinks from a base of 12oz skim milk (12.5 gm protein, whey and casein) plus 10 gm of whey protein isolate to yield 22.5 gm, which is a dose of 0.5 gm/kg for me. I add other ingredients such that the end result if 50-60 gm carbs, shooting for 2-3x gm carbs per gm protein.

A while back, I started adding 5gm of glutamine. I wasn't sure if the glutamine, being an amino acid, was supposed to some out of the total protein allotment or not. But for lack of knowing for sure what to do, I cut the whey protein by 5gm when I added the glutamine,

Today I ordered some more whey protein isolate and glutamine and I earned a bonus 0.5 lb package of creatine. Read up on that, sounds reasonable to try since its free and it looks like they're sending me enough to last me a decent amount to time to see if it makes a difference.

So now my question becomes: do I cut the whey protein isolate out entirely to go with 12.5 gm protein from the skim milk + 5 gm glutamine + 4-5 gm creatine to give me a total dose of 22ish gm "protein"? I'm just not sure if these partial proteins/amino acids "count" when you read that the optimal post workout protein dose is 0.5 gm/kg.
Cutting the whey and replacing it with glutamine isn't doing you any favors (replacing a complete and high-BCAA protein with a non-essential amino acid). Just add the glutamine on top of the whey. A lot of the glutamine doesn't even make it into circulation - it is consumed by the intestines directly.

Creatine is not a proteinogenic amino acid; it's pretty much unrelated to typical proteins / AA other than that it can be made endogenously from amino acids when intake is low. Don't add it to daily protein totals.
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Old 08-29-18, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
Cutting the whey and replacing it with glutamine isn't doing you any favors (replacing a complete and high-BCAA protein with a non-essential amino acid). Just add the glutamine on top of the whey. A lot of the glutamine doesn't even make it into circulation - it is consumed by the intestines directly.

Creatine is not a proteinogenic amino acid; it's pretty much unrelated to typical proteins / AA other than that it can be made endogenously from amino acids when intake is low. Don't add it to daily protein totals.
Thanks, that's perfect.

It turns out that as a result of miscommunication, my husband (who makes my recovery drinks while I'm uploading data etc), never actually decreased the whey in the drinks when I added the glutamine around a year ago even though I thought he had. He has been doing 12.5 mg protein in the skim milk + 17 gm whey protein isolate + 5 gm glutamine all along. The subject came up once I found out about the creatine freebie and we just got out wires uncrossed. Looks like we were inadvertently doing it right all along.
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Old 08-29-18, 12:52 PM
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if anything, i'd add BCAA in lieu of glutamine after hard workouts. hard defined as anything requiring me to spend a lot of time above threshold. back when i was racing, 16 fluid ounce of kefir was what I took

the other thing is, that's a lot of protein in one go. someone probably knows this a lot better than I do, but can you be sure that all of it will be utilized as amino acid for muscle repair (cf. metabolized)?
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Old 08-29-18, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
if anything, i'd add BCAA in lieu of glutamine after hard workouts. hard defined as anything requiring me to spend a lot of time above threshold. back when i was racing, 16 fluid ounce of kefir was what I took

the other thing is, that's a lot of protein in one go. someone probably knows this a lot better than I do, but can you be sure that all of it will be utilized as amino acid for muscle repair (cf. metabolized)?
Sure it may not be used optimally. I'm not sure how much that really matters. There's not really a down side IMO to too much protein as long as you can afford it calorie-wise. Lol not saying I can since I'm currently fat. But if you can manage the weight, I think you're better off consuming a slight protein excess rather than not enough. Especially if you're a woman and have trouble building muscle anyway.
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Old 08-29-18, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
the other thing is, that's a lot of protein in one go. someone probably knows this a lot better than I do, but can you be sure that all of it will be utilized as amino acid for muscle repair (cf. metabolized)?
Do you even lift?

2 scoops GainZXZZZ in 500mL 2% milk in the shower to get your Broteins. Grrr then a steak and hard boiled egg.
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Old 08-29-18, 02:53 PM
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but on a more serious note, how many grams of protein/amino acid could the body handle after a serious cycling workout? I'll go just a little bit over, but anything more would be a bit wasteful (and expensive)
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Old 08-29-18, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
but on a more serious note, how many grams of protein/amino acid could the body handle after a serious cycling workout? I'll go just a little bit over, but anything more would be a bit wasteful (and expensive)
I was joking - but trust me it's more than you think... like maybe double.

I'm sad.. there really is a product called gainzzz
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Old 08-29-18, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
but on a more serious note, how many grams of protein/amino acid could the body handle after a serious cycling workout? I'll go just a little bit over, but anything more would be a bit wasteful (and expensive)
From what I've read, about 20-30g of protein at a time can be used for muscle protein synthesis, so more than that in a meal is somewhat wasted (at least, from the standpoint of repairing or building muscle). That seems to be the recommended post-workout dosage for strength athletes, I would think endurance athletes might not need as much but I don't think there would be any real downside to consuming that much.
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Old 08-29-18, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jsk View Post
From what I've read, about 20-30g of protein at a time can be used for muscle protein synthesis, so more than that in a meal is somewhat wasted (at least, from the standpoint of repairing or building muscle). That seems to be the recommended post-workout dosage for strength athletes, I would think endurance athletes might not need as much but I don't think there would be any real downside to consuming that much.
Actually, the jury's still out on how much is too much. There have been some studies that show it could be stressful to the kidneys in some way but nothing even close to being conclusive at this point. Nevertheless, the above seem reasonable. And maybe 10gms. on either side for a man.

The idea behind glutamine intake is that of muscle sparing: if its readily available in circulation it would spare your body's use of this most abundant amino acid. Creatine, on the other hand, draws water into the cell which theoretically should aid with protein synthesis and add a bit more energy for one or two more reps in the weight room. It works well for some, while others (me included) report just getting bloated.

For the record, no one knows what the limit is for protein absorption, but if you're currently taking protein isolates, you're already getting the very best of everything you need.
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Old 08-30-18, 06:06 AM
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Following up on Krane's point about creatine, be sure you are drinking plenty of water. It can leave you dehydrated. Also, some people report muscle mass and weight gain due to water being pulled in to the cells. If that's a problem, stop taking it and it will go away in a few days.
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Old 08-30-18, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Following up on Krane's point about creatine, be sure you are drinking plenty of water. It can leave you dehydrated. Also, some people report muscle mass and weight gain due to water being pulled in to the cells. If that's a problem, stop taking it and it will go away in a few days.
The only reason I’m trying it is because it’s free, if I don’t like it’s effects I’ll just drop it.

But interesting to know about the hydration. I’m a minimalist with drinking on the bike. I get away with it because my weekday morning workouts are before dawn, so it’s cool. My weekend rides are often in heat but lower intensity. As we transition into race season though, I’ll get more real “work” on my schedule on the weekends when I’m riding in daylight so it could become an issue.

Thankfully Coach is a bit of a camel himself so I’m not continually hassled to drink more. And I definitely understand the importance of it in heat, on long rides, etc. Mostly though I drink way less than most recommendations I see (in Bicycling mag and the like) so understanding the Creatine effect on that will be useful.
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Old 08-30-18, 10:50 AM
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Here's another opinion:

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/08/your...-1-refuelling/
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Old 08-30-18, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post
But interesting to know about the hydration.

It's true that you should drink a little extra water while taking creatine - because that's how it exerts its beneficial effects - but the dehydration thing is a persistent myth. Creatine causes water retention and water weight gain.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19295968

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18184753

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17460334
Exercise trials were conducted pre- and postsupplementation at 30 degrees C and 70% relative humidity. In the Pl group, total body water (TBW) increased by 0.50 +/- 0.28 L after Gly and in the Cr group by 0.63 +/- 0.33 L after Pl and by 0.87 +/- 0.21 L after Gly.

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Old 08-30-18, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
but on a more serious note, how many grams of protein/amino acid could the body handle after a serious cycling workout? I'll go just a little bit over, but anything more would be a bit wasteful (and expensive)

studies I've read/seen showed 40g protein to be about the limit of uptake gains after a workout. Diminishing returns from 20g-40g, though. This was irrespective of bodyweight in the study I saw. They just used the raw protein values, not g/kg or anything.
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Old 08-30-18, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by gl98115 View Post

??? This article does not address my question at all.
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Old 09-10-18, 09:19 PM
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All i can say is creatine made my legs feel unusally tired and heavy ...
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Old 09-11-18, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
studies I've read/seen showed 40g protein to be about the limit of uptake gains after a workout. Diminishing returns from 20g-40g, though. This was irrespective of bodyweight in the study I saw. They just used the raw protein values, not g/kg or anything.
gotcha; thanks for the info
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