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Is amateur racing legit?

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Old 10-18-18, 10:07 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
You could say that about any level of amateur racing.
agreed but I still say its worth the struggle. Maybe as a species we will move past this in some way. I mean everything you put into your body is a set of chemicals in a way. We are just putting arbitrary rules associated with some of them.

People who are much smarter than I work on this stuff though so Im just going to stick with trying to help enforce the rules as they are.
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Old 10-18-18, 11:29 AM
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I didn't realize she'd won a world championship, but it makes my facebook feed a little more contextual.
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Old 10-18-18, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Also, those figures are outrageous. Its $3k for an amazing race rig setup with all the kit you need and maybe $1k per year to do most any racing till your heart explodes.

Not sure whats up with the hyperbole going on here.


Why do you think it's hyperbole? Or the figures are outrageous? Does your stuff not wear out? I spend 1000-2000 a year just on replacing worn and broken bike equipment.And I don't race nearly as much as others, but even doing just 30 or so races my race fees are still over 1k a year.

I kept very detailed records in 2017 and the beginning of 18 (didn't race much past May).

For 2017 I spent $3,240 dollars on gear (including one-offs of building a pair of carbon race wheels and a smart trainer), $1406 on registration fees for 32 races (including 12 races in which I only paid $12 dollars/ half price since I was the series champion, + the national championships and a stage race, which were both crazy pricey), and $1129 on race travel (gas, hotels, food). I made $1986 in prize money, for a net loss of $3780.

For 2018 I spent $1672 on equipment, $461 on 13 entry fees (had ~8 races comped), $541 on travel, and got $1200 in prize money, for a net loss of $1476.

My kit was free, and my nutrition stuff I get by with cheap protein and carbs from wherever it's cheapest, and close-out gels and the like, so none of that's included.
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Old 10-18-18, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I was paged...

When someone with both X and Y chromosomes can win women's worlds not cheating, then "cheating" is less of an issue to me than fairness (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/not-f...075054632.html ). We have TUEs, junior gears covered in pages of posts elsewhere (and locked threads) that deal with fairness. As cheating and not fairness was in the OP....
That's canuckbelle, right? She posted here a year or two back until she got mad about her totally illogical biases being called out, if memory serves correctly.

I remember her ridiculous 1200+ watt sprint numbers and thinking no wonder she won every crit.

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Old 10-18-18, 11:56 AM
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Huh, I'd forgotten about her. I'd wondered at the time when I saw her arguing about transgendered athletes, but then she didn't comment when someone asked her about her status and then she just disappeared. At least, that's how I remember it going down.
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Old 10-18-18, 12:40 PM
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I think there are a few transgender cyclists who are in the national spotlight. It wasn't my impression that canukbelle did anything particularly world stage worthy.

As to the money issue -- oy -- indeed it makes me want to take up a simpler sport at times. For sure it's one of the things that made me punt away the 'become a time trialist' idea.
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Old 10-18-18, 12:42 PM
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I was wondering why we were all of a sudden discussing gender issues and then it dawned on me - I have Doge blocked. I blocked him because of gender issues rants in the past so- makes sense that this is what it is about all of a sudden.
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Old 10-18-18, 12:51 PM
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As far as the money goes...it is expensive. If it wasn't this though, I'd probably take up something even more expensive and dangerous, like mountaineering or crippling alcoholism
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Old 10-18-18, 12:55 PM
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See the Alex Honnold movie if you can.
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Old 10-18-18, 12:56 PM
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this is the most activity this abyss has seen in a long while.
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Old 10-18-18, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
See the Alex Honnold movie if you can.
Free Solo?
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Old 10-18-18, 01:04 PM
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yeah., it was playing in west nyack the other day and we went. tremendous.
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Old 10-18-18, 02:07 PM
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Haute Route is on the right path. https://www.hauteroute.org These guys are making money and cyclists are paying a lot of dough to get a Haute Road experience. They have a race in San Francisco in 2019. I might be interested in one in Europe. That could be a lot of fun and similar to the race I did in Tahiti.
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Old 10-18-18, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
See the Alex Honnold movie if you can.
I get sweaty palms thinking about that movie. I gotta pass.
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Old 10-18-18, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I was wondering why we were all of a sudden discussing gender issues and then it dawned on me - I have Doge blocked. I blocked him because of gender issues rants in the past so- makes sense that this is what it is about all of a sudden.
trans women wins masters world championship, other racers complained. it makes news. Doge didn't say anything particularly regressive.
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Old 10-18-18, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Why do you think it's hyperbole? Or the figures are outrageous? Does your stuff not wear out? I spend 1000-2000 a year just on replacing worn and broken bike equipment.And I don't race nearly as much as others, but even doing just 30 or so races my race fees are still over 1k a year.

I kept very detailed records in 2017 and the beginning of 18 (didn't race much past May).

For 2017 I spent $3,240 dollars on gear (including one-offs of building a pair of carbon race wheels and a smart trainer), $1406 on registration fees for 32 races (including 12 races in which I only paid $12 dollars/ half price since I was the series champion, + the national championships and a stage race, which were both crazy pricey), and $1129 on race travel (gas, hotels, food). I made $1986 in prize money, for a net loss of $3780.

For 2018 I spent $1672 on equipment, $461 on 13 entry fees (had ~8 races comped), $541 on travel, and got $1200 in prize money, for a net loss of $1476.

My kit was free, and my nutrition stuff I get by with cheap protein and carbs from wherever it's cheapest, and close-out gels and the like, so none of that's included.
Was the post above edited?

Because I read $100k and $250k or something like that when I posted that. As in the post I responded to originally showed humdreds of thousands of dollars.

Not the thousands like you just said. What you just posted sounds more in line.
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Old 10-18-18, 06:15 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post

Was the post above edited?

Because I read $100k and $250k or something like that when I posted that. As in the post I responded to originally showed humdreds of thousands of dollars.

Not the thousands like you just said. What you just posted sounds more in line.

edited posts are annotated by the system to say edited. The quote was 30-50K over the past few years.
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Old 10-19-18, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
this is the most activity this abyss has seen in a long while.
apologies - extreme quick cold snap and business absolutely dissolves overnight.

In other words I hope I find something else to do.
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Old 10-19-18, 09:37 AM
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Amateur racing is legitimate but depending on how well one does, may not be that much fun. For example, I won the masters state track championships in 500 meters two years in a row once in NorCal and the other in SoCal. That was fun and a great experience - medals, jerseys, standing on podiums and pics. At Masters Track Nationals in 2014, I was 4th in the 500 meters and 3 rd in 2k pursuit - same experience but not as great as winning.

Last year at masters track worlds I was 13/30 in the 500 and this year 12/19 in 2k pursuit. Guess what, not as much fun or that great of an experience. But it is all very legitimate. I am happy being 13/30 in 500 and 12/19 in pursuit and I could beat the snot out of all those guys in pursuit in the 500.

So amateur racing is about the level of competition and management of expectations. The goal may be to win but that is just not possible all the time hence many racers get discouraged and stop racing or do not even try.

And for those that have success, how may podiums can one stand on?

That is why, I think racing has to evolve to offer different aspects of the sport to create an experience no matter how well one does, IMHO.
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Old 10-20-18, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
See the Alex Honnold movie if you can.
Free Solo in case anyone is wondering what movie it is.
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Old 10-20-18, 05:20 AM
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The idea that racing is only about winning is ridiculous, and probably what's part of killing the sport.


First, traditional road racing cycling has been a team sport for a very long time. One person isn't supposed to be able to do it all alone. Sort of like basketball. Sure, every now and then one person puts the team on their back and scores 50 points, but it's outlier stuff. The issue comes in that supportive roles aren't appropriately recognized for what they are. Hincapie was a great LT (despite being a colossal a-hole and doper), but he wasn't much of winner on the world stage. His best wins came as a result of being on a power house team. Ted King, Phil Gaimon...look at the riders who went and rode in Europe and mostly they were in support roles. Look at the whole landscape of riders. 1 guy wins the tour. A handful can pretend to have a chance. So much so they added races within the races to maintain interest. Why doesn't every other rider quit? Serious question.


In Pro golf the idea isn't winning. How few people actually win a tournament, never mind a pro tournament. Even pros. The idea is to do your best and accumulate winnings.


If we drill this down to winning only there is no point. Even on the masters level I know way way way more folks who have not a breath of a chance of ever winning a race. Guys like me or RacerEx, or others who can go out and win 30% or more of the racers are really rare. My last full year I was in the top 10 in every race I did (despite category), time five like 75%, and was on the podium 50% of the time. My primary rival won the 50+ national crit this year. But it's outlier stuff. Until my teammates started dying an aging out of the sport (seriously, two of my teammates have died in just the past couple of years) most of them had roles specific to getting in a break or making sure I was in the break or in a position to win the sprint. We split money, and accolades and they got a workout. I would not have won as much without them. And the ones who were good at specific roles genuinely liked what they did and to be part of a successful team. I did, and continue to win when they weren't there. It's a messed up metric. But it couldn't be about winning individually for all of them because if so there is no point. It wouldn't happen. Not ever for some of them. It's just not there.


So what then?


The domestic pro crit squad I referenced earlier had guys on that team that had never really won a race ever. For real. You can do that. Look at the pro ranks. You can get enough points to move up, be strong as hell, a massive cog in a team, and still lack the pop or the breakaway ability to win. But it doesn't matter because it's not really your job. Your job is to go to the front and pull back a break. Or sit in an all day break and get TV coverage until it gets caught. Or ride 5 miles of tempo on a climb until the big boys go play. Or go back and forth with water bottles. Or like a guy who has the role to get one lefty batter out in the eight, ride 200 meters all out before handing it off to another faster guy who can actually lead out the sprinter who wins the race. Or get third, because there are two other sprinters who are just better.


Sure there are individual disciplines like mountain bike racing and track stuff, but even in those sports a lot of it is racing against yourself. You look at time or placing improvements.


That's, of course, more complicated in road racing where one isn't really part of a cohesive team, or trying to move up through the categories, and where 22nd one week isn't really meaningfully better that the 24th the weekend before (I know a guy who had a hard time understanding that concept).


People call running a participation sport but if you're doing it again and again and racing against your time who is someone else to define that it's not really racing?


My present focus is hill climbs. In hill climbs they generally place overall, and then break it out by age. I'm usually top 5-10 overall sometimes better depending on the day (i.e. who shows up). I'm usually first or second in my age group (which again is a nice problem to have). But if some guy shows up (or woman - this one pro woman rode me right off her wheel 3/4 of the way up whiteface two years ago) and is just faster so it goes. If I hit my target time or w/kg does it suddenly become a bad day. Same numbers - I win vs I lose. Only variable is who shows up. Is there really an empirical difference? Does my happiness in the sport get reduced to a guy's car not starting the morning of a race? There was just an article on a guy who did Mt Washington on an e-bike. He finished in a time roughly twice mine. It wasn''t an article about e-doping gone wrong; he has Parkinson's disease.


If one can't find things to keep them engaged in this sport that revolve around something other than winning there really is no point. Particularly in the disciplines where hitting the pavement is a greater possibility.

Go watch Free Solo. Alex Honnold is competing. With himself and his own abilities. Look at folks who are doing ultramarathon stuff. Or inventing challenges. In the end all of this has to be about working with our own minds and bodies. If it's only about crossing a line before someone else there is always someone faster than you.

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Old 10-20-18, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
The idea that racing is only about winning is ridiculous, and probably what's part of killing the sport.


First, traditional road racing cycling has been a team sport for a very long time. One person isn't supposed to be able to do it all alone. Sort of like basketball. Sure, every now and then one person puts the team on their back and scores 50 points, but it's outlier stuff. The issue comes in that supportive roles aren't appropriately recognized for what they are. Hincapie was a great LT (despite being a colossal a-hole and doper), but he wasn't much of winner on the world stage. His best wins came as a result of being on a power house team. Ted King, Phil Gaimon...look at the riders who went and rode in Europe and mostly they were in support roles. Look at the whole landscape of riders. 1 guy wins the tour. A handful can pretend to have a chance. So much so they added races within the races to maintain interest. Why doesn't every other rider quit? Serious question.
.
Because they get paid to do it. Because that's their job. And because those guys all won significant events in order to get to that position in the first place.

They're already winners. That's why they're there.
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Old 10-20-18, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Because they get paid to do it. Because that's their job. And because those guys all won significant events in order to get to that position in the first place.

They're already winners. That's why they're there.
It's just not true. Sorry. Indeed it's their job, but not everyone comes up winning significant events. They might be strong. Super talented. But winning takes specific skills. Not everyone has them.
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Old 10-20-18, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
It's just not true. Sorry. Indeed it's their job, but not everyone comes up winning significant events. They might be strong. Super talented. But winning takes specific skills. Not everyone has them.
Those guys you mentioned have won significant events. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any worldtour rider that hasn't, either as a jr/u23, amateur, or pro.
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Old 10-20-18, 11:05 AM
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Maybe. I can't name three current pros. I reckon few races that occur in the US are significant.

on a world stage level ted king's accomplishments aren't particularly awe worthy as an individual

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_King_(cyclist)

The hair splitting aside, there need to be other reasons to race on all levels other than winning. You don't think so? cool. I'm older and wiser and promise that position has shortfalls.

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