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Is amateur racing legit?

Old 11-01-18, 11:02 AM
  #126  
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FYI the current UCI and USAC rules regarding testosterone levels for trangender women cyclists is not that they have to be "super low". They just have to be below the low end of the male reference range ie below 10 nmol/L. The female reference range for testosterone is 0.8-2.8 nmol/L.

On BF someone posted a couple of years ago that they follow Rachel McKinnon on some form of social media and she stated there that her testosterone level was around 1 nmol/L IIRC, so its doesn't sound like she was racing at that time with a higher than typical testosterone level for a woman. But per the rules, it would not be cheating for a transgender woman to race and train with a testosterone level of 9 nmol/L, which is 6x what most of her competitors will race with.
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Old 11-01-18, 11:58 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
As if such a time ever existed.
Read the Death of Expertise - The Campaign against Established Knowledge and Why it Matters. https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge/dp/0190469412/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1541095023&sr=1-1&keywords=death+of+expertise
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Old 11-01-18, 02:05 PM
  #128  
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Is this more unfair than junior gear restrictions?
It is just another slip in the slope. The junior gear restriction (for males) when racing adult (males) is still more significant than drugs, and likely former gender.

I am no longer arguing as anyone associated with juniors. Rather, it is the single most unfair thing I see in USAC. Nobody much cared.
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Old 11-01-18, 03:25 PM
  #129  
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Is it supposed to be fair? I thought the idea was it was protecting them.
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Old 11-01-18, 07:01 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Is it supposed to be fair? I thought the idea was it was protecting them.
They need no protection (for knees). Their knees are vastly superior to any adult knees. They jump off things 3X their height.

If anything I saw more tendon use fatigue. Spinning more causes more irritation. This is not a stomp vs spin argument. They do whole races averaging higher RPM than the adults, there is more use, tendons and ligaments get fatigued. The reason it is done is a coaching one. They copy Europe, Belgium primarily where over a hundred kids race together. They want to normalize the stronger kids that can ride off with a big gear and force them to learn the craft. I'm also not a fan of coaching via the rules. Nobody makes rules on bike position, but at least that is fair.


I don't know if it is supposed to be fair. I know it isn't. I know in road races the gear handicap matters, while in hill climbs, crits and track and for women it doesn't. Some crits that typically end in 44 MPH sprints (like SoCal Ontario) it matters. Long descents with a 50-60MPH pack - it matters. Generally track and women's fields do not see either of those speeds, so it matters less.


If fairness is required to be legit - I'd start with gears. I agree with your posts that in general I think riders should just ride because they like it. So despite my harping on it, adults allowed bigger gears, or someone taking an ED drug, or those that developed as males racing women, while I think it unfair, at the local level it costs to much to fix it.


In the USA - there are not those fields for juniors other than maybe 2-3 race. To be internationally competitive, or just because they want to or can, USA juniors have to race adults. In that case they are forced to be handicapped. Juniors have placed pretty high (2nd a couple times) in PRT races with pretty big purses required by rules to ride a 53X14 max while the pros in Redlands and Tour of Utah are on much bigger gears. Some juniors are good spinning 130RPM, some are not as good. This creates false selection criteria as real road racing has few spinning 130 RPM.
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Old 11-02-18, 08:13 AM
  #131  
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Dunno. Maybe the intent is exactly to be unfair. That is to limit their ability to mix in at the end. I think your junior experience is largely with outliers. My personal experience of juniors is that I don’t wNt then near me at the end of a race.
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Old 11-02-18, 08:34 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Dunno. Maybe the intent is exactly to be unfair. That is to limit their ability to mix in at the end. I think your junior experience is largely with outliers. My personal experience of juniors is that I donít wNt then near me at the end of a race.
Safer for them and others when they're not a pack sprint?
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Old 11-02-18, 08:48 AM
  #133  
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Somerville is a circle of hell with juniors dive bombing corners. A guy who rides for a development team now won the cat 2 race at Somerville a few years back as a junior and immediately slammed himself into the pavement after posting up. He won off the front thankfully.


edit: actually he wasn’t solo. Just didn’t take anyone else down.

Last edited by gsteinb; 11-02-18 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 11-02-18, 09:20 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Nobody much cared.
You care about my problem enough to think itís worth actually trying to fix and Iíll care about your problem enough to think itís worth actually trying to fix.

You go first.
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Old 11-02-18, 09:49 AM
  #135  
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Rachel might have a point that trans women should be able to race with women. She definitely goes off the rails when she goes says they should be able to do so on whatever her normal testosterone level would be.

Doge might have a point that junior gearing is unfair. He definitely goes off the rails when he equated the difference with EPO.
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Old 11-02-18, 10:57 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Heathpack View Post


You care about my problem enough to think it’s worth actually trying to fix and I’ll care about your problem enough to think it’s worth actually trying to fix.

You go first.
I do care, I have gone. Neither issue have affect on me, or relatives or close friends.
Your problem, is my problem in that I want USAC put on races where all participants have an equal opportunity.
I just want rules removed, that create unfairness, that is easier done than fixing the TUE caused issues.

What have I done?
Communicated with a number of USAC voting reps. Communicated with USAC officials many times over a decade. I think they listen and I think some things are different because of that communication.

I would suggest everyone communicate with their elected USAC reps that in the same race should be allowed to have equal use of substances and equipment.
Over time, if they hear the that same thing enough, something might happen. If the message is mixed, I doubt anything will happen.


I also have suggested, what I posted here that there should be a Cat 1-12 (or 7 or 8) with no age or gender distinction. You race with those at your level - any age, any gender. And for a given race everyone has the same stuff - and PEDs allowed. At the end of the day you just lookup the fastest in whatevergrouping you want and give them their group ribbon.

Last edited by Doge; 11-02-18 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 11-02-18, 11:01 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
....He definitely goes off the rails when he equated the difference with EPO.
I live off the rails.
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Old 11-02-18, 11:40 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I do care, I have gone. Neither issue have affect on me, or relatives or close friends.
Your problem, is my problem in that I want USAC put on races where all participants have an equal opportunity.
I just want rules removed, that create unfairness, that is easier done than fixing the TUE caused issues.

What have I done?
Communicated with a number of USAC voting reps. Communicated with USAC officials many times over a decade. I think they listen and I think some things are different because of that communication.

I would suggest everyone communicate with their elected USAC reps that in the same race should be allowed to have equal use of substances and equipment.
Over time, if they hear the that same thing enough, something might happen. If the message is mixed, I doubt anything will happen.


I also have suggested, what I posted here that there should be a Cat 1-12 (or 7 or 8) with no age or gender distinction. You race with those at your level - any age, any gender. And for a given race everyone has the same stuff - and PEDs allowed. At the end of the day you just lookup the fastest in whatevergrouping you want and give them their group ribbon.
So is this 8 start times or one mass start and all the cats race together. At first I thought you were talking about 8 different races, but then you said something about looking up who was in what group to give them their ribbons and I wasn't so sure and got scared thinking about how that would look in a crit.
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Old 11-02-18, 12:05 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
So is this 8 start times or one mass start and all the cats race together. At first I thought you were talking about 8 different races, but then you said something about looking up who was in what group to give them their ribbons and I wasn't so sure and got scared thinking about how that would look in a crit.
One race per category. On a crit day about 8-9 races. Cats could still be combined.

Rather than the promoter putting on a race for the 4, or 1 that show up to one category they will have bigger fields, or right sized fields. This would generally simplify road race starting order on the same course. It is hard to say who is faster between a women's X, and junior Y or men's Z. This is a much clearer ranking. You are a 3 - no qualification needed. Rachel would be Rachel and race in a category with near equal competitors.

Best 50 year old women is the best finisher of the highest (lowest number) category, etc..
There might still be debate on what gender a person is for the prize, but I don't see why from a racing standpoint that is far different from age brackets. It just depends on how many ribbons the promoter wants to hand out.


Cat kid for the truly little pint sized. This is pretty much what it is now. Once they can race adults:

Cat 8 25 max field, 20 min , gears limited to 52X16 (same as 15,16 in Belgium) - all ages and genders.

Cat 7 40 max field, 30 min , gears limited to 52X14 (UCI junior standar 17,18).

Cat 6 40 max field, 30 min , no gear limits

Cat 5 60 max field, 45 min

Cat 4 100 max field no time restrictions (other than "normal")

Cat 3 no restrictions

Cat 2 "

Cat 1 "

Last edited by Doge; 11-02-18 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 11-02-18, 03:20 PM
  #140  
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They sort of do this at what was Iron Hill and is now called Benchmark. They have seeding races during the day, and before the pro women, and then pro men, they run an 'amateur' final which is comprised of the X number of top finishers from each race durning the day. I've never stayed for the final. Sounds like a **** show, but also since I leave at 0 dark thirty to get there for day racing, sticking around into the night and then driving hours homes doesn't sound like a prize.
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Old 11-02-18, 04:06 PM
  #141  
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imma downgrade to a 12
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Old 11-02-18, 10:02 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
They sort of do this at what was Iron Hill and is now called Benchmark. They have seeding races during the day, and before the pro women, and then pro men, they run an 'amateur' final which is comprised of the X number of top finishers from each race durning the day. I've never stayed for the final. Sounds like a **** show, but also since I leave at 0 dark thirty to get there for day racing, sticking around into the night and then driving hours homes doesn't sound like a prize.
My primary concern was filling fields and making it easier for the promoter* - and the lack of need to have a groups, other than filtering results later. My *significant* ratings of races aside aside - it really is silly to have Valley of the Sun stage race have 1 competitor in a category two years in a row. Different groups can be competitive with each other. Brand new riders do need some guidance on how to be safe, but after a point mixing these groups is not much a problem that I can see. They are mixed now. Women can race with men, juniors too.

This concept is what fondos are doing - everyone all together, but the fast are off by themselves, and there are many groups. Fondos are attracting many riders and in some cases many racer types. Some of those fondos are as competitive as the top Cat 1 races. https://mikenosco.com/ can be more so, depending on mood of riders.

*My observation is when it gets too difficult for promoters the races just go away. The primary SoCal issue is permits, paying police and parking. Small fields are very costly. Having equal purses even more so. Boulevard was a great SoCal race. Average women prize > entry fee. Average man prize < entry fee. The race is no more. I thought removing groups would remove the pressure of pleasing everyone. Promoter would just provide a safe, interesting venue and let people race. IMO have a PED category ribbon too.

Last edited by Doge; 11-02-18 at 10:09 PM.
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Old 11-03-18, 04:53 AM
  #143  
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Not sure.

I appreciate the fondo format, but ultimately we’re in a country that hates bicycles. Large communities simply aren’t going to tolerate being inconvenienced on a long time scale. Open road races increase the chance of tragedy, which will lead to law suits and ultimately break the back of those events. Corporate park crits put skinny exercising folks where society intends; out of view so we can go back to our breakfast of sugar cereal or steak and eggs. As a rider, 100 mile things don’t hold my attention any way. Doge’s non hierarchical approach always places long RR type events at the top (hierarchical). Once you look at shorter events, separating out skill sets matter because you add speed, and increase the possibility of lapping.

It is indeed a solution though perhaps not the only one.

I guess there’s starva and zwift for things under 100 miles.

Last edited by gsteinb; 11-03-18 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 11-03-18, 11:31 AM
  #144  
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There is a hierarchy... Grand Tours and long road races will always be more important than a criterium.
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Old 11-03-18, 12:40 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
There is a hierarchy... Grand Tours and long road races will always be more important than a criterium.
itís a thread about amateur racing. Last check Europe doesnít have an amateur racing problem
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Old 11-03-18, 04:08 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post


itís a thread about amateur racing. Last check Europe doesnít have an amateur racing problem
Fair enough
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Old 11-04-18, 10:09 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
There is a hierarchy... Grand Tours and long road races will always be more important than a criterium.
While this is amateur racing I still think there is a hierarchy. The events that make the promoters the most money and have the most satisfied customers rank the top. It may be men's 40-50 crits for USA amateurs, but it is unlikely junior women, or juniors, or adult women - regardless of race type. Groups that lose money are contributors to the whole events being eliminated. Rather than eliminating those groups from races and being seen as unfair, some promoters just pack it up. Juniors, in general are not a profitable group to have.


Example from last month - collegiate NATS MTB races (Oct '18) had 6/~60 in both Club and Varsity finish. The course was too short, and riders were 90% pulled.

Had the same 120 or so riders had two groups based on ability rather than group (Varsity or Club) more would have finished. Also the top Varsity riders were more competitive with the top Club riders. That would have been a better competition. The second 50% of both those groups would have raced longer (not pulled before being lapped) and had more equal competition if grouped by ability. There are lots of dropped, lapped riders in small field crits that would have a better chance racing if not grouped by age or gender (or school type). In races with multiple groups on course that were from races started a few min a part, riders from different races often ride together off the back as they are similar ability. Technically they are supposed to be solo.

Racing everyone by ability helps solve that issue. That model is less affected by race type. Rider ability, field size, lap length and race time affect who gets to finish. If grouping is by ability you would expect to see fewer dropped, more finish, more competitive and more fun. Short course lengths vs race times lead to riders being lapped creating safety and satisfaction issue.

Last edited by Doge; 11-04-18 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 11-08-18, 12:36 PM
  #148  
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Amateur racing is legit! Local 58 year old Cat 2 got popped like it was hoat.

https://www.usada.org/steven-strickl...ping-sanction/

Last edited by arai_speed; 11-08-18 at 06:19 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 11-09-18, 10:08 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by arai_speed View Post
Amateur racing is legit! Local 58 year old Cat 2 got popped like it was hoat.

https://www.usada.org/steven-strickl...ping-sanction/
Is the news he was using PEDs, or that he was caught?
Not being sanctioned for violations is what makes a sport less legit, not having violations.
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Old 11-13-18, 02:25 PM
  #150  
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3 guys tested positive at the Vuelta a Miami. I'm sure that was just coincidental.

Third Masters rider caught doping, with EPO, in same road race - Sticky Bottle - Sticky Bottle
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