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running during off season?

Old 11-12-18, 04:53 PM
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spectastic
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running during off season?

It's getting pretty freaking cold out. the rain doesn't help either. I recall Lance mentioning in a podcast that when he runs, he's gets as much aerobic workout in 30 minutes as a an hour on the bike. I don't really know what to make of that information.

Anyway, running appears to use the same muscle groups as cycling, except it engages the muscles both concentrically and extrinsically, while cycling only engages the muscles concentrically. I wonder how this translates to cycling.

- Does running just tax your legs more without additional benefit for cycling, or are there some benefits?
- Does running really make you exert more aerobically than cycling, and hence give you a better workout? I can definitely tell that while running, my RPE is higher than if I were cycling. If this were the case, does a 1 hour run basically equate to a 2 hour ride?
- Running probably doesn't develop your legs the same way cycling does. Can you supplement with some high rep leg exercises in the weight room?
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Old 11-12-18, 04:57 PM
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@mattm runs sometimes.

All I know is running destroys my legs and the PE for the same HR is much higher, likely due to unfamiliarity and all the work being done by stabilizing muscles that haven't seen any action for years.
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Old 11-12-18, 07:44 PM
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If you like power - don't run.
I don't think running helps cycling at all. Rather, I think it hurts it. Best cross is row/crew or skiing downhill, speed skating (roller blades?) - something without pounding.
Unless road racing the upper body mass increase won't matter all that much.
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Old 11-12-18, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
If you like power - don't run.
I don't think running helps cycling at all. Rather, I think it hurts it. Best cross is row/crew or skiing downhill, speed skating (roller blades?) - something without pounding.
Unless road racing the upper body mass increase won't matter all that much.
can you elaborate?

i don't have any of those other things you mentioned, but I do have a pair of running shoes, and a pretty hot running partner.
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Old 11-13-18, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
can you elaborate?

i don't have any of those other things you mentioned, but I do have a pair of running shoes, and a pretty hot running partner.
Go with the hot partner. What did you want me to elaborate on?
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Old 11-13-18, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Go with the hot partner.
Correct.

Personally I've found running helps my cycling. Mostly with standing climbing; but also a bit when riding over rough roads - makes you robust and you can better tolerate micro eccentric loads from vibrations.
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Old 11-13-18, 12:27 AM
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let's come back to cycling haha.

how does running hurt cycling? how does aerobic exertion while running compare with cycling? why is RPE higher for running?
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Old 11-13-18, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Enthalpic View Post
Correct.

Personally I've found running helps my cycling. Mostly with standing climbing; but also a bit when riding over rough roads - makes you robust and you can better tolerate micro eccentric loads from vibrations.
Guess it depend on the goal. Climbing is a small % of most riding. If the goal is riding - ride. If it is ride/run with hot partner - ride/run with hot partner. If it is being faster, don't run (for same amount of time doing something better).
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Old 11-13-18, 12:54 AM
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It's going to help maintain (or possibly improve) cardiovascular fitness. It is going to help in core strength, which is useful on a bike. It is not going to help your legs get stronger in ways that are highly useful on the bike. But as is the case with most types of cross training it can fill in some muscle groups that you tend to ignore, but that might improve your riding slightly, as well as your endurance.

More exercise is usually better than less, and if it keeps you moving in the off season it will probably help.
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Old 11-13-18, 05:13 AM
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Sport specific exercise is usually better to improve at a particular sport, unless it comes to fixing muscular imbalances that cause injuries. Sport improvement isn't necessarily the same as general health and fitness though. What might make one a better cyclist might not necessarily be the best decision one could make health wise (i.e. weight bearing exercise vs striving for the look of an Kenyan distance runner). The greatest benefit in off season cross training is the joy of doing something different and mentally having a break from riding so much. Perhaps the greatest danger to running is injury. I've found that since I have a decent engine I can push myself too far, and end up hurting something that isn't normally taxed through cycling.
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Old 11-13-18, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
let's come back to cycling haha.

how does running hurt cycling? how does aerobic exertion while running compare with cycling? why is RPE higher for running?
Your exertion comment implies that the higher exertion cardio exercise, or the longer duration makes you faster. I think it is generally accepted that short high intensity intervals followed by sufficient rest will maximize fitness. HR is higher running, but I expect due to pounding the ground and running requires upper body movement that cycling does not require in the saddle. An out of the saddle effort cycling can be just as strenuous as running. If you look at elite runners and cyclists their builds kinda tell the story.
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Old 11-13-18, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Perhaps the greatest danger to running is injury. I've found that since I have a decent engine I can push myself too far, and end up hurting something that isn't normally taxed through cycling.
this is my experience. I have no acclimation to running, but have the cardio to go out and run 10 miles. I might not feel too bad until I stop and realize how many different muscles I've just strained.
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Old 11-13-18, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
this is my experience. I have no acclimation to running, but have the cardio to go out and run 10 miles. I might not feel too bad until I stop and realize how many different muscles I've just strained.
I do some running in the winter for the exact reasons the OP stated. Switch it up and get some outdoor cardio in. The first few times I can barely walk the next day and no way I'm riding for a few days. In that sense, I'd say it's bad!!
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Old 11-13-18, 08:15 PM
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I run a bit in the offseason. 20-25 miles a week. Takes a week or so of build up to avoid a total system shock.

Does it help or hurt? Dunno. It does keep me active and running on the trail reduces the chance of a car running me over than if I was on a bike. I will say that it's rare to get through one run without almost getting hit by a bike though.
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Old 11-13-18, 08:44 PM
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I ran during offseason until I hurt my knee. It's good for you and very time efficient (just look at calories burned / mile).
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Old 11-14-18, 01:10 PM
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I run because I don't want to get to be 50 or 60 someday and have the bone density of a 110 year old with osteoporosis.

I feel it balances out the muscle development a little bit and burns some calories and keeps some aerobic fitness when I can't cycle how I please.

If I'm low on TSS for a week or want to eat some treats instead of starving when I don't have training time..........out on foot.

Got a new 5k PR the other day while part of running a 10k. Just felt good. Still nowhere close to 7:XX's for a 5k though. Closer to 8:00 though.

I kind of want to pair together a sub 20min 10 mile TT someday with also being able to do a sub 20min 5k. That'd be cool. But not in the same workout....... I'm years from that goal. Little constant steps.
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Old 11-14-18, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I kind of want to pair together a sub 20min 10 mile TT someday with also being able to do a sub 20min 5k. That'd be cool. But not in the same workout....... I'm years from that goal. Little constant steps.
Those are worlds apart!

I ran a sub 20 min 5k two months off the couch and 10 lbs overweight.

I can't really imagine doing a 20 min 10 mile TT. I don't think I've ever even averaged over 28 on a legitimate course, even at half that distance.
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Old 11-14-18, 05:24 PM
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I recall Dr O'Donnell doing a 30 mph TT back in the day. He beat Chodroff who later got popped for doping. Don't recall how long the TT was though. That's hella fast.
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Old 11-14-18, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Those are worlds apart!

I ran a sub 20 min 5k two months off the couch and 10 lbs overweight.

I can't really imagine doing a 20 min 10 mile TT. I don't think I've ever even averaged over 28 on a legitimate course, even at half that distance.
if you put in the equipment investment, you should definitely be able to do at least 28mph, if not 30.

even someone as mediocre as I did ~28.5 on a 8-mile out-and-back course
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Old 11-15-18, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
if you put in the equipment investment, you should definitely be able to do at least 28mph, if not 30.

even someone as mediocre as I did ~28.5 on a 8-mile out-and-back course
I won't fool anyone here, I've not close to the fitness yet. At all. This is a long term pet project for some long term fun and motivation.

I'll start a separate topic on it soon, but I was given a 2008 Felt DA for free. Just the frameset. I'm going to budget build that and see if with that I can hit 28mph in 2019. I have a fair but very fast country road 10 mile route (loop). If the wind is just right on the day, the wind can be a cross that won't hurt ya one way and may help the other.
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Old 11-15-18, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by echappist View Post
if you put in the equipment investment, you should definitely be able to do at least 28mph, if not 30.

even someone as mediocre as I did ~28.5 on a 8-mile out-and-back course
According to my time, power and speed calculator (spreadsheet I developed), at my measured CdA and weight, I need 347 watts (I have verified that number at the track) to go 28.5 mph . That does not seem like an unrealistic 20 minute power for many on this site in the aero position. And I suspect for some, the power requirement is less due to lower CdA and weight. The only way for me to lower my CdA is to bring in the doc with the bone saw from the Saudi hit team and chop off my shoulders.
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Old 11-15-18, 09:34 AM
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Oh man, that's a lot for 28.5 mph!

I'm only 150ish lbs and about 5' 9" or so. So I don't punch a very big hole in the air.
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Old 11-15-18, 10:01 AM
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if you get your set-up dialed, it's doable at ~300W, which I believe you are currently at. It's the next 1.5 mph that requires either significant reduction in CdA, significant increase in power, and/or both
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Old 11-15-18, 11:43 AM
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I like how a 'running during the offseason' thread morphed into 'how many watts does it take to TT at 30mph' thread. This is a bike racing forum after all.

FWIW I have signed up to run a 4 mile turkey trot with my family and I'm not looking forward to it. I started 'training' for it with a 16 minute jog a couple days ago and by the end every step hurt in my knees and ankles. I'll step it up to a 20 minute jog this weekend and consider myself ready. I consider this to be just a distraction from cycling as my legs get really sore after a run and it really is a trade off for me in that more time running means that much less time cycling or in the weight room. If I kept it up for more than a couple weeks I'd expect the DOMS would drop off and it would probably be good for my health but I'm not willing to make that trade off. Also, I live where I can ride outdoors pretty much year round so running wouldn't help get me outside off of a boring trainer.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:05 PM
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I'm like Fudgy. I start running, and feel fine, then I don't, and I have to figure out how I"m going to get home.

I think the last time I really ran was for the Krispy Kreme Challenge - a 4k run with a dozen donuts in the middle. (Yes, I ate all 12. No, I did not feel good after.)
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