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Talk me off the ledge (Race Promotion)

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Talk me off the ledge (Race Promotion)

Old 12-04-18, 02:48 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
More time at the lake? When you quit facebook you start losing touch with people. I'm like that guy in a movie who starts to disappear.
Hasn't ridden, let alone raced, in a couple of years. This year the only time I saw him is when I made it to a Cubs game as he's a season ticket holder and at the Urbana race. We have people that are sort of interested in picking up the pieces of the race. It's actually starting to feel slightly hopeful here. In a weird way. It's just time for a new generation of promoters.
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Old 12-04-18, 04:11 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
IMO, I think the fondo system can work and be competitive, with a corral system. Fast racers go first, next fastest, etc. Its done in Europe. Maybe its done here, I haven't done one before.

What @psimet said; the natural evolution of an endurance athlete is to train for fun, enter an event as a participant (marathon, tri, fondo) find they excel at it and then compete. Almost every racer starts out that way and goes up the ranks until they stall and hang it up.

Bike racing is a hard sport, and the races are designed to filter out the trash. If you're not the 10% winning, you're probably going to wash out at some point. With fewer races that filter is even greater. I watch Jr races where 3-5 kids don't have a shot, they get lapped, and no one has a problem with that. Same kid wins every week, same kids get lapped every week. By the end of the year, those kids just stop showing up.

Many of these races communities (specifically masters) the meta never changes; same people win every year. So racers just don't bother registering. More races help, but the promoters are losing money, so its a no win situation. The races are also dictated by the minority

Maybe this is all an SCNCA thing, we used to be the biggest district in the nation, now we are 3rd or 4th? In the few years I've raced, its become less communal and more tribal.
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Same in New York/New England.
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Old 12-04-18, 04:13 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I wish @DieterDrake just had a hill climb race up devil's kitchen!
I toyed with this a few times, but in the end it was too much of a pain because that road crosses a county line and that sends it into permitting hell with the NYSDOT... Also, there's really no place to stage at the bottom and Tannersville is 6 miles away at the top. Getting riders to and from seems like a budget killer.
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Old 12-04-18, 05:52 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by DieterDrake View Post
I toyed with this a few times, but in the end it was too much of a pain because that road crosses a county line and that sends it into permitting hell with the NYSDOT... Also, there's really no place to stage at the bottom and Tannersville is 6 miles away at the top. Getting riders to and from seems like a budget killer.
Understood. A climber can dream though! It would be a shorter drive for me than Wachusset.
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Old 12-04-18, 05:55 PM
  #80  
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Everyone should move to NYC and race. Yeah the rent will break you, but there's like 100 races a year in the boroughs, plus you can ride to Rockleigh. Of course everything else about living in NYC would probably suck.

Glad there's some hope psimet
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Old 12-05-18, 04:57 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Everyone should move to NYC and race. Yeah the rent will break you, but there's like 100 races a year in the boroughs, plus you can ride to Rockleigh. Of course everything else about living in NYC would probably suck.

Glad there's some hope psimet
why move to nyc when you can ride central park on zwift
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Old 12-05-18, 05:17 AM
  #82  
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The real racing is at Floyd Bennet Field!
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Old 12-05-18, 11:02 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
why move to nyc when you can ride central park on zwift
<-- the original triggered emoji
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Old 12-05-18, 12:50 PM
  #84  
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Well...that Local Association conference call with US Cycling was depressing. Can't make it public but price changes are on their way. Nothing major to racers. Hope your auto renewal is on.

Racer days are down. -12% or 56,000 for the year. Licenses are actually up by 1,300 over 2017 but that is 100% due to auto-renewal.

I didn't catch the details at the start but insurance premiums that USA Cycling has to pay to their insurance company are going up by 38-48% or some such craziness. 2 large settlements were finished up and USA Cycling is being made to pay them out instead of insurance paying them (most likely as a concession to keep insurance coverage in the future). I don't know details or specifics but I am sure one was the racer death in St Louis in 2017
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Old 12-05-18, 01:15 PM
  #85  
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It was in Kansas City. Rider was from St Louis. Not that it matters.
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Old 12-06-18, 04:17 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
It was in Kansas City. Rider was from St Louis. Not that it matters.
Thank you. I wasn't there but I knew a lot of people who were. Met his family briefly this spring as well.
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Old 12-06-18, 04:18 PM
  #87  
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FWIW - we talked a bit about the broken upgrade system at the low end on the podcast today. : Road Is Dead: #39 - Upgrade Issues
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Old 12-06-18, 04:36 PM
  #88  
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If I listen will I question if I earned my upgrade?
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Old 12-06-18, 04:39 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
If I listen will I question if I earned my upgrade?
yeah me too I can't have that negativity in my life
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Old 12-06-18, 06:54 PM
  #90  
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HAHAHA - nah it's not very deep. Just mainly discusses the perpetual problem of racing as a 4. You are always in a field with riders who will be a 2 or 1 at some point. When racing as a P/1/2 you are in an evenly matched field (take teams out of it). In other words under the current system 4's who are "forever 4's" will always be racing with people who are far too talented to race as a 4. It's the nature of being a 4. They never get to race with just a field of "4's" from a talent standpoint. It's why a lot of new racers leave the sport for good and why a lot of racers who used to race just won't come back.

I posit the possibility that maybe having a "lateral category" that riders can request to be placed in might solve this. Call it a cat F. You can't earn upgrade points in it. It's not meant for those looking to move up. It's for riders that know how to race (not 5's) but have no real talent or ability to progress. Gives them a field to race with that is more fun. Same idea behind what created the masters fields back in the day - only they used age as a qualifier.
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Old 12-06-18, 07:01 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by mike868y View Post
why move to nyc when you can ride central park on zwift
British Cycling announces eSports national championship for 2019

The competition, which is set to start in February or March 2019, is open to all riders, who will have to race through a number of qualifying events before the country's best meet to battle it out through a number of different race formats, with a national champion's jersey awarded to the winner.
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Old 12-06-18, 07:18 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
HAHAHA - nah it's not very deep. Just mainly discusses the perpetual problem of racing as a 4. You are always in a field with riders who will be a 2 or 1 at some point. When racing as a P/1/2 you are in an evenly matched field (take teams out of it). In other words under the current system 4's who are "forever 4's" will always be racing with people who are far too talented to race as a 4. It's the nature of being a 4. They never get to race with just a field of "4's" from a talent standpoint. It's why a lot of new racers leave the sport for good and why a lot of racers who used to race just won't come back.

I posit the possibility that maybe having a "lateral category" that riders can request to be placed in might solve this. Call it a cat F. You can't earn upgrade points in it. It's not meant for those looking to move up. It's for riders that know how to race (not 5's) but have no real talent or ability to progress. Gives them a field to race with that is more fun. Same idea behind what created the masters fields back in the day - only they used age as a qualifier.
but of course guys will move laterally to stay and win. I know a guy who for a time was one of the better riders in NYC. I swear he literally down graded over time from 1 to 4 and then took 4th Battenkill as a 4 (he lost to David Anthony who eventually got popped for doping, though admitted he doped his whole cycling career -- meaning you had an ex 1 and a doper in the top 4). Those had to be good time for @DieterDrake

Last edited by gsteinb; 12-07-18 at 05:21 AM.
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Old 12-06-18, 07:23 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
but of course guys will move laterally to stay and win. I know a guy who for a time was one of the better riders in NYC. I swear he literally down graded over time from 1 to 4 and then took 4th Battenkill as a 4 (he lost to David Anthony who eventually got popped for doping, though admitted he doped his whole cycling career -- meaning you had an ex 1 and a doper in the top 4).
Yeah we talk about that. It just has to be policed and maybe, because of the nature of this new category, it's easier to calculate "staying points" to force upgrades out of that field. In the end it has to be the pressure of the others in the field complaining. Trust me - if it's supposed to be an easy field and someone starts waving a big stick then they'll get thrown back into the regular 4's field quickly.

The sandbagging is only part of the problem. The biggest part of the problem is that by design it's never a remotely level field or inviting field to new riders.
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Old 12-06-18, 07:24 PM
  #94  
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The other things is that i think we could informally create this system under our existing structure without changing anything. We actually try this locally for a while and see how it works.
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Old 12-06-18, 10:08 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
FWIW - we talked a bit about the broken upgrade system at the low end on the podcast today. : Road Is Dead: #39 - Upgrade Issues
I'll have to listen to that on my easy ride this weekend.

The winners are the loudest voice in the community, and that creates a problem because they only represent a small amount of the race community as a whole. The promoters don't go to the riders who struggle year after year (aka the majority) they ask the national champs and competitive Cat 1's what they want out of race day.

At Chico, they got rid of the 45+ 4/5's and told the racers to race 35+ 3/4. The next year those riders just didn't show up; attendance dropped in the lower cats but was up for the 1's and 2's. This is the same trend that happened in the SCNCA when they went to that format. The promoters and USAC still don't get it; every time I talk to one they cite external reasons; some of which are true but race day design is a big issue. They don't see a problem with the change because the 30 somethings farming wins rave about it. To be fair, a 35+ year old going from Cat 4 to having to race against Bahati and Monster Media is probably too big a jump as well.

A solution would be to combine races and score more groups separately. Let Women have masters groups, don't clump all Juniors in one group, etc. So what is someone is guaranteed a podium, at least that person feels they have an incentive to race. I'm not sure if that's legal or even viable though.
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Old 12-06-18, 10:32 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
HAHAHA - nah it's not very deep. Just mainly discusses the perpetual problem of racing as a 4. You are always in a field with riders who will be a 2 or 1 at some point. When racing as a P/1/2 you are in an evenly matched field (take teams out of it). In other words under the current system 4's who are "forever 4's" will always be racing with people who are far too talented to race as a 4. It's the nature of being a 4. They never get to race with just a field of "4's" from a talent standpoint. It's why a lot of new racers leave the sport for good and why a lot of racers who used to race just won't come back....
The track guys forum says stay a 4 and learn to race. It required a USAC request to get junior out of cat 5 to get him to cat 4. Nevermind he can lap a field of 2s, and likely lap Cat 1s. It is discouraging to them (those competitors) - and him. At age 20, with 10+ years of racing, nothing is particularly unusual about his development, just that USAC makes it hard to race against like ability, so he goes skiing. I care, he doesn't. Allow him to compete in nats, I'm fairly confident he would do well, make him work his way through the ranks - he'll keep skiing.
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Old 12-06-18, 11:40 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
HAHAHA - nah it's not very deep. Just mainly discusses the perpetual problem of racing as a 4. You are always in a field with riders who will be a 2 or 1 at some point. When racing as a P/1/2 you are in an evenly matched field (take teams out of it). In other words under the current system 4's who are "forever 4's" will always be racing with people who are far too talented to race as a 4. It's the nature of being a 4. They never get to race with just a field of "4's" from a talent standpoint. It's why a lot of new racers leave the sport for good and why a lot of racers who used to race just won't come back.

I posit the possibility that maybe having a "lateral category" that riders can request to be placed in might solve this. Call it a cat F. You can't earn upgrade points in it. It's not meant for those looking to move up. It's for riders that know how to race (not 5's) but have no real talent or ability to progress. Gives them a field to race with that is more fun. Same idea behind what created the masters fields back in the day - only they used age as a qualifier.
But wasnt the same thing true when road cycling was doing well?
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Old 12-07-18, 07:29 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
The track guys forum says stay a 4 and learn to race. It required a USAC request to get junior out of cat 5 to get him to cat 4. Nevermind he can lap a field of 2s, and likely lap Cat 1s. It is discouraging to them (those competitors) - and him. At age 20, with 10+ years of racing, nothing is particularly unusual about his development, just that USAC makes it hard to race against like ability, so he goes skiing. I care, he doesn't. Allow him to compete in nats, I'm fairly confident he would do well, make him work his way through the ranks - he'll keep skiing.
You're missing the point from the track forum discussion. He is saying that just because you are a 1 on the road doesn't mean you should be inserted into a Cat 1/2 race on the track. The dynamics of a track race are quite different from road, and given the speeds and banking on the track there is a substantial risk of injury in a crash. The point was for Puppy to go spend time in the lower category races to learn how to race safely on the track then to move up to where his strength is competitive. It was also noted that Puppy should not spend his time lapping the field in the lower races but stay in the field and learn how to race in it.

The ability to pedal hard and go fast does not mean one has the skill or experience to race in a pack - this goes for triathletes moving into road racing or road racers moving into track. There is less concern with road/track to cross or MTB because of the nature and dynamics of the races.
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Old 12-07-18, 08:26 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
but of course guys will move laterally to stay and win. I know a guy who for a time was one of the better riders in NYC. I swear he literally down graded over time from 1 to 4 and then took 4th Battenkill as a 4 (he lost to David Anthony who eventually got popped for doping, though admitted he doped his whole cycling career -- meaning you had an ex 1 and a doper in the top 4). Those had to be good time for @DieterDrake
Honestly, I didn't really pay any attention to who won what and how or with what in their system at Battenkill (or any race for that matter). I was too busy trying to make it good event. I remember David got caught at GFNY though, and thinking at the time how sad I felt for him that he felt he had to do that. He is a very nice guy.

I think people are missing the trees for the forest here. Racing is something people try for a bit and then move on to other things, and where USA Cycling has failed is that transition point. Expecting members to be racers for life is entirely unreasonable and not attached to any measure of practicality. I know a race in Upstate NY that once had close to 800 Cat 5s alone. Only a very very small percentage of those people are racing today. They've either moved on to non-competitive cycling or to other things entirely. If USAC wants to survive (yes, this is a concern - USA Swimming is filing for bankruptcy, for example) they need to send the message that it's ok not to race and to try other formats. I don't think I'm alone in stating that the racing crowd has tried to set itself apart from the rest of the industry. That has not served it well...

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Old 12-07-18, 09:35 AM
  #100  
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Something else we haven't really touched on in this discussion is injury.

If I go run a marathon, I may sprain an ankle, strain a muscle or tear a ligament. But I'm likely going to do that myself. I am not likely to be injured by the actions of another runner, and even if I do "crash" in a running race, I am only likely to suffer minor scrapes and bruises.

Road racing has a very high level of injury potential, and even death. Broken bones and concussions are common. And each year, my ability to bounce back from injury lessens. That doesn't help keep people involved.
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