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Talk me off the ledge (Race Promotion)

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Talk me off the ledge (Race Promotion)

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Old 12-07-18, 10:17 AM
  #101  
gsteinb
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Something else we haven't really touched on in this discussion is injury.

If I go run a marathon, I may sprain an ankle, strain a muscle or tear a ligament. But I'm likely going to do that myself. I am not likely to be injured by the actions of another runner, and even if I do "crash" in a running race, I am only likely to suffer minor scrapes and bruises.

Road racing has a very high level of injury potential, and even death. Broken bones and concussions are common. And each year, my ability to bounce back from injury lessens. That doesn't help keep people involved.

I donít know what you mean.
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Old 12-07-18, 10:19 AM
  #102  
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Dieter I’m not surprised you don’t know that stuff. I don’t think you should. But people do. And the idea of racing against a guy who routinely won cat 1 races, downgraded to a 4, or a guy who
infanously doped as a 5 is unquestionably part of what has people giving up.

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Old 12-07-18, 11:48 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
I'll have to listen to that on my easy ride this weekend.

The winners are the loudest voice in the community, and that creates a problem because they only represent a small amount of the race community as a whole. The promoters don't go to the riders who struggle year after year (aka the majority) they ask the national champs and competitive Cat 1's what they want out of race day.

At Chico, they got rid of the 45+ 4/5's and told the racers to race 35+ 3/4. The next year those riders just didn't show up; attendance dropped in the lower cats but was up for the 1's and 2's. This is the same trend that happened in the SCNCA when they went to that format. The promoters and USAC still don't get it; every time I talk to one they cite external reasons; some of which are true but race day design is a big issue. They don't see a problem with the change because the 30 somethings farming wins rave about it. To be fair, a 35+ year old going from Cat 4 to having to race against Bahati and Monster Media is probably too big a jump as well.

A solution would be to combine races and score more groups separately. Let Women have masters groups, don't clump all Juniors in one group, etc. So what is someone is guaranteed a podium, at least that person feels they have an incentive to race. I'm not sure if that's legal or even viable though.
Combining fields and scoring them separately is HORRIBLE! I've raced in fields like that, and it takes too much energy to keep track of who is in what field. You can't truly race if you don't know you who are racing against.
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Old 12-07-18, 07:06 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
You're missing the point from the track forum discussion. ...
No, I got that point. It is about skill and safety although a pro/Cat 1 in one discipline, due to lack of experience or skill crashing others out, I would expect to be rare.

My post was confirming there is an upgrade issue. In my kid's case who has not ever had a USAC race road or track crash he has 8 categories to manage and 12 qualifier races to do to race nationals. The last 5 years there are calls needed to sort this out, get exceptions. It is generally simple, but it is a lot of unneeded effort.

I think it is true that most want to race against similar ability. Riding off the front, or back or sandbagging in the pack are not as fun (for many) as duking it out with similar ability. Those may be a different age, gender or category. USAC groups by a bunch of non-performance

So much of USAC racing is based on grouping other than performance. Age, gender and school. So at collegiate MTB nats both men's Varsity and Club had 6 riders each finish their races. That is just one example. If the collegiates were group by ability I think 4X as many would have finished.
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Old 12-07-18, 07:18 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by chicagogal View Post
Combining fields and scoring them separately is HORRIBLE! I've raced in fields like that, and it takes too much energy to keep track of who is in what field. You can't truly race if you don't know you who are racing against.
Truth.

A number of years ago I was in the NYS crit. Actually it was Dieter's race. Shame it went away. Great course in downtown Saratoga Springs. It started to rain while we were on the line. A group of 5 or 6 of us attacked in the first turn and that was the race. Problem was it was a combined 35/45 (I think - could have been 30/40, as I forget the year), and it wasn't evident who was in what race. I was racing to win the race, and one team had two guys. As we got down to the end there were attacks, and counters, and this one guy was just hanging on. I assumed he was shot. These two guys worked me over pretty good, and I ended up getting 5th out of 5. Turned out the guy hanging on was in my age group, and he was simply marking me so he would win the age group. So we were out there quite literally doing different things.

This year's NYS RR was combined with the NJS RR. In one field there were two state titles on the line, and two age groups. All the numbers were the same.
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Old 12-07-18, 08:59 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by DieterDrake View Post
If USAC wants to survive (yes, this is a concern - USA Swimming is filing for bankruptcy, for example) they need to send the message that it's ok not to race and to try other formats.
The outgoing CEO of USAC Derek Bouchard-Hall does recognize this issue which is why they now offer non-racing memberships and supporting Gran Fondos. In this podcast he mentions British Cycling, which has more non-racing members than racers.

https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/new...cycling_481556
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Old 12-07-18, 10:16 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by gl98115 View Post
The outgoing CEO of USAC Derek Bouchard-Hall does recognize this issue which is why they now offer non-racing memberships and supporting Gran Fondos. In this podcast he mentions British Cycling, which has more non-racing members than racers.

https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/new...cycling_481556
Agreed, but my point is that the message has not been communicated well and Velonews is not exactly in the outlet in which to convey it. That's like yelling in an echo chamber. USA Today or Rolling Stone, yes, VN no.
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Old 12-10-18, 01:48 PM
  #108  
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The message was clear when I was in Colorado a few months ago - future = enthusiasts. That was the message being put out by DBH. Now he's gone. Good luck to whomever replaces him and here's to hoping USA Cycling doesn't fall back into the mess it was.

As for more non-racers than racers - we all have this. I just ran USAC database numbers on team sizes in IL. We are still second with 65 or so. We have 150+ member group on Facebook for the team. At one point xXx Racing in Chicago was a 200+ member club. While still the largest in Illinois they are only 86 members (IIRC) with licenses. To boot - not all of our license holders race in a year. Something between 30-40% actually register for a race in any given year. .
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