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Chip Timing

Old 06-26-05, 08:05 PM
  #1  
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Chip Timing

Does anyone else here find anything wrong with this manner of sorting results (other than in a Time Trial)?

Obviously, I'm opposed to it. But I'm open to hearing other arguements.
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Old 06-26-05, 08:09 PM
  #2  
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I was just talking about this with my gf and timmhaan today. I don't know how accurate they'll be if you have 4-5 people finishing within inches of each other.
Are you talking about an active system or passive?
Active systems are those transponders on racers, they're good to like a hundredth of a sec. I know when my gf goes running they give her some kinda chip, it looks like a poker chip, I don't know how accurate those are since they're probably passive like the mobile speedpass.
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Old 06-27-05, 10:26 AM
  #3  
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Well, if the winner is taken by the leading edge of the front wheel, and the chip is on the front skewer, then a close sprint won't be accurately judged.
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Old 06-27-05, 10:38 AM
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They used 'em in the TdF last year but mounted to the chainstay. I think the reason was more for identifying riders along the route and sorting out who was in the group finishes.

I think the only way to get accurate finishing results is a high-speed camera pointed at the finish line.
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Old 06-27-05, 12:59 PM
  #5  
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Originally Posted by EventServices
Well, if the winner is taken by the leading edge of the front wheel, and the chip is on the front skewer, then a close sprint won't be accurately judged.
Yea, if I mounted a 700X32 on the front I'd have like a 3mm edge on the field!
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Old 06-27-05, 01:44 PM
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Hmm, never thought of that. It's diabolical, yet totally legal.

Hmmm.

Voodoo, you are aptly named.
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Old 06-27-05, 04:32 PM
  #7  
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Originally Posted by F1_Fan
They used 'em in the TdF last year but mounted to the chainstay. I think the reason was more for identifying riders along the route and sorting out who was in the group finishes.

I think the only way to get accurate finishing results is a high-speed camera pointed at the finish line.


Correct. A camera is still used to determine placings, the chainstay mounted trancievers are for timing and to ensure everyone crosses the finish line etc. They can mount these anywhere on the bike, coz you need more than a gap of about 10 metres on a flat finish to be outside s.t. as the rest of your group/peloton.
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Old 06-27-05, 05:32 PM
  #8  
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Originally Posted by EventServices
Does anyone else here find anything wrong with this manner of sorting results (other than in a Time Trial)?

Obviously, I'm opposed to it. But I'm open to hearing other arguements.
Hell yes I object to that method of timing. I was in a road race last month that I won. This particular place used chips the day before for two time trials - they worked great. The next day, they installed the chips again on our bikes for the road race. Everyone was keying on me, because the day before, I had turned the top TT time out of over 100 competitors. I did most of the pulls because no one would work. I came over the line first holding everyone off. The announcer asked that the top ten finishers report to the officials desk. I was informed then that I had won the bronze medal rather than the gold medal that I earned because the interval that I beat the alleged gold and silver medalists by was less than the starting interval. IOW, if they crossed the start line 10 seconds after me, and I only beat them by 9 seconds, they won. Hello? USCF rules indicate that everyone gets the same start time on mass start. I pointed out, that I could have hung way back at the start line, very quickly caught up with the front pack, and then kicked butt with the nice time bonus I awarded myself by starting slowly.

I have protested, and I am awaiting the results. The Florida Sports Association is on my side, and the boss indicates that I am the winner, but my bronze medal belies that fact.

As you can see, I am no fan of chips for non TT events.
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Old 06-27-05, 05:59 PM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by skydive69
Hell yes I object to that method of timing. I was in a road race last month that I won. This particular place used chips the day before for two time trials - they worked great. The next day, they installed the chips again on our bikes for the road race. Everyone was keying on me, because the day before, I had turned the top TT time out of over 100 competitors. I did most of the pulls because no one would work. I came over the line first holding everyone off. The announcer asked that the top ten finishers report to the officials desk. I was informed then that I had won the bronze medal rather than the gold medal that I earned because the interval that I beat the alleged gold and silver medalists by was less than the starting interval. IOW, if they crossed the start line 10 seconds after me, and I only beat them by 9 seconds, they won. Hello? USCF rules indicate that everyone gets the same start time on mass start. I pointed out, that I could have hung way back at the start line, very quickly caught up with the front pack, and then kicked butt with the nice time bonus I awarded myself by starting slowly.

I have protested, and I am awaiting the results. The Florida Sports Association is on my side, and the boss indicates that I am the winner, but my bronze medal belies that fact.

As you can see, I am no fan of chips for non TT events.

Skydive, that is nuts! Im assuming this was not a USCF race?
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Old 06-27-05, 06:07 PM
  #10  
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Skydive I don't think the issue is with the chips there, they functioned fine, however the officials on the other hand appear to have malfunctioned.
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Old 06-27-05, 08:01 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76
Skydive, that is nuts! Im assuming this was not a USCF race?
No, it was under the auspices of the Senior Games network which allegedly abides by USCF rules. The Florida Sports Foundations oversees the various venues that offer the games here in Florida, but they leave it up to the sponsors to properly run the games. Unfortunately, the same people that ran the event I alluded to are running the state championships in December. It is going to be a different ballgame then, because if they use those stupid rules, I will just break away, and never look back. The breakaway is my mentality anyway, because I am a strong time trialist, but I had completed two difficult time trials the day before running at an average of 97% max heart rate, and I feared I wouldn't be able to sustain a long break.
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Old 06-27-05, 08:51 PM
  #12  
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That's one absurd interpretation of the rules.

Next time, I'd like to try mounting that chip onto the rear bumper of the pace car.
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Old 06-27-05, 09:40 PM
  #13  
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I just did a quick search, here's what one company has to say:
AMB Activ Timing Chip
Number of chips: unlimited
Timing resolution: 0.0085 sec.
Dimensions: 43.7 x 27.3 x 11.3 mm
Weight of chip: 16 grams
Chip position : max. height 3 ft (90 cm)
Max. speed: 45 mph (75 km/h)
Temperature range: -4 to 122 F (-20 to 50 C)
Battery life: 100,000 passings
Signal transfer: magnetic induction
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Old 06-28-05, 05:09 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by EventServices
That's one absurd interpretation of the rules.

Next time, I'd like to try mounting that chip onto the rear bumper of the pace car.
I wasn't nuts about some guy removing the thing with a set of dikes from the super paint job on my forks of my custom painted Guru. We had a pace police motorcycle. I wanted to draft the sucker, but he always stayed just out of range! Anyway, I could have made a big fuss the day of the race, but the two medal recipients seemed so thrilled, I didn't want to diminish their experience. I had killed them in the two time trials the day before, and they both knew they were racing for silver, so it was quite a thrill for them to go silver/gold. The principle just so bothered me of a mismanaged athletic event. You train your ass off in preparation, and you are owed at least competent management of the event. It does however re-enforce my love of the "race of truth" - the good old time trial. No BS there!
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Old 06-28-05, 05:29 AM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by skydive69
I wasn't nuts about some guy removing the thing with a set of dikes from the super paint job on my forks of my custom painted Guru. We had a pace police motorcycle. I wanted to draft the sucker, but he always stayed just out of range! Anyway, I could have made a big fuss the day of the race, but the two medal recipients seemed so thrilled, I didn't want to diminish their experience. I had killed them in the two time trials the day before, and they both knew they were racing for silver, so it was quite a thrill for them to go silver/gold. The principle just so bothered me of a mismanaged athletic event. You train your ass off in preparation, and you are owed at least competent management of the event. It does however re-enforce my love of the "race of truth" - the good old time trial. No BS there!
Had I been beaten straight up in a sprint, then declared the winner, I would have declined. Im surprised your fellow racers didn't stand up for you.
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Old 06-28-05, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Voodoo76
Had I been beaten straight up in a sprint, then declared the winner, I would have declined. Im surprised your fellow racers didn't stand up for you.
The race brochure indicated USCF rules, but then at the end, the organizers indicated that was how it worked when chips were used. I guess they simply chose not to protest the stated rules, but those of us who legitimately race know that in a road race, you beat someone when you cross the line ahead of them. I was actually happy for the medalists, just unhappy with the way things were done. I had had a rather exciting weekend running the fastest 10K age group time in the nation, beating the state record in the 5K, and having a two-page newspaper article done on me, so I had my share of fun. I was happy they could bring home some goodies also!
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Old 06-28-05, 07:19 AM
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So the REAL race was at the Start Line since the advantage went to the guy who rolled out first. The REAL race was to get a good starting position at the line.

That would have been good to know in advance.

In actuality, with Chip Timing, they don't have to start the clock until you're a mile down the road. Morons.

Sadly, the USCF isn't immune from this type of thinking.
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Old 06-28-05, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by EventServices
So the REAL race was at the Start Line since the advantage went to the guy who rolled out first. The REAL race was to get a good starting position at the line.

That would have been good to know in advance.

In actuality, with Chip Timing, they don't have to start the clock until you're a mile down the road. Morons.

Sadly, the USCF isn't immune from this type of thinking.
Think I would have sat at the line for 20 sec, then jumped up to the field. Cross the line middle of the pack with 20sec on everybody
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Old 06-28-05, 08:58 AM
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Yeah, under those moronic rules, anyone who had pretty good ability to close a gap, which I can as a time trial specialist, just needed to position themselves at the back of the pack, roll slowly towards the start/finish line, and then that person's official start time was the moment they rolled over the start/finish line. You would then give yourself a nice little time cushion, and if you were even close at the end to one of the front row starters, you would beat them even though they finished ahead of you. And of course, that is precisely what happened to me. I positioned myself at the front, because I had no idea if it was going to be a fast start, and I knew that I was favored to win. That great strategy backfired, but you live (race) and learn.

Everything, BTW, pissed me off about that race. I kept pulling trying to push the pace, and when I would move over to allow someone else to work, they wouldn't. One guy tried a break at a hill, but when he found me on his wheel at the top, he just eased back into the Peloton. Road races remind me of politics, and again, that is why I love time trials.
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Old 07-16-08, 09:34 AM
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Chip Timing Survey

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?s...ztDDtlkQ_3d_3d
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Old 07-16-08, 10:22 AM
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Anyone have evidence of a front edge of wheel that crossed first and a fork that crossed second? All of the examples above seem to be problems with the race management's implementation of chip timing, not with getting beat by someone else's chip.

These are two drastically different issues, IMO.
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Old 07-16-08, 10:42 AM
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Mass start races aren't usually won or lost on time. The officials were stupid. It's not like its a mass start of 100 TT's all at once. The clock starts for everyone at the starting signal in a mass start race; hence the "mass start" in the description of the race. It sounds like then thought things through wrong and started the rider's clock when their timer crossed the start line. Sounds clever, but it's not the way races are traditionally run.

Instead of investing in all this timing stuff, why don't the officials just get a finish line camera? Easier to use, rider only needs to pin a number on, and you have recorded visual evidence of the finish in the case of challenges.
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Old 07-16-08, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
That's one absurd interpretation of the rules.

Next time, I'd like to try mounting that chip onto the rear bumper of the pace car.

Keep the chip in your pocket until the finish then throw it across the line as hard as you can.
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Old 07-16-08, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by NomadVW View Post
Anyone have evidence of a front edge of wheel that crossed first and a fork that crossed second? All of the examples above seem to be problems with the race management's implementation of chip timing, not with getting beat by someone else's chip.

These are two drastically different issues, IMO.
Spoiler maybe included, but check today's Tour stage victory. I would say that exactly that happened
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Old 07-16-08, 11:39 AM
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I favor the idea of chip timing. If they can make it work for a marathon with 5k people on a mass start, then surely it can work for 75 cyclists.

Administering the thing is clearly another matter. I'd like to see USAC transition to it with video finish being the final word. For $100 per racer you make officials' lives easier (again, if done correctly) and get a wealth of comparative data. Some potential for new prime methods.
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