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How can weight lifting help?

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How can weight lifting help?

Old 09-19-19, 03:03 PM
  #26  
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This week I've just started lifting, if you can call it that. Squats, Deadlifts, and Single Leg Press. 3x4 and 3x3 the next, for 3x a week. For weight conscious climbers that seems to be the best plan; building strength without mass. Right now I'm probably doing 60% of1rm, and I'll build that up and be there for a few weeks, take a few weeks off and start again at 60%.

I don't expect this to make me a sprinter, just make my body a bit stronger and more efficient. Some studies have shown this works, we'll see how it goes.
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Old 09-19-19, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
For track, he was riding 1-2 hour week. Increased to 3 hours for a couple weeks before crit.
4:1 ratio of gym to bike makes more sense I suppose with only 1-3 hours of week on the bike.
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Old 09-19-19, 07:31 PM
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Well, it can make you so sore that you'll forget all about how much your butt hurts.
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Old 09-19-19, 08:53 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
This week I've just started lifting, if you can call it that. Squats, Deadlifts, and Single Leg Press. 3x4 and 3x3 the next, for 3x a week. For weight conscious climbers that seems to be the best plan; building strength without mass. Right now I'm probably doing 60% of1rm, and I'll build that up and be there for a few weeks, take a few weeks off and start again at 60%.

I don't expect this to make me a sprinter, just make my body a bit stronger and more efficient. Some studies have shown this works, we'll see how it goes.
At that percentage you can weight train continuously, but if you need a break one week is sufficient. At two weeks you begin to lose what you've gained.

Originally Posted by cmh View Post
4:1 ratio of gym to bike makes more sense I suppose with only 1-3 hours of week on the bike.
If your goal is as stated. For better overall health the ratio might be more balanced.
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Old 09-21-19, 04:23 PM
  #30  
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Iíll preface by saying Iím actually new to cycling...so feel free to skip my comment ; )

But if you want to gauge hamstring weakness, even light, dumbbell, Romanian deadlifts can show you where you are. They target hamstrings and glutes and minimize quad involvement since you stop before your knees bend too much. Try just 40lbs in each hand, 3x10, maybe even 2x10 if itís your first time, and your hamstrings may be sore for a couple of days.

Its actually tough, Iím finding, to work my leg day, basically just 5x8-12 goblet squats and 4x8-12 Romanian deadlifts into cycling since I usually need 2 days of recovery. Probably be less sore if I went lighter for higher reps. And cycling specific plans would be structured to minimize DOMS. Goblet squats are great, you automatically use perfect form and less injury risk reportedly.

Cycling obviously hits quads hard but Romanian deadlifts will balance strength in your hamstrings and glutes. You just feel more balanced and stronger in general. AlthoughI couldnít say how specific the benefits are to cycling.

Last edited by CyclingBK; 09-21-19 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 09-21-19, 09:45 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by CyclingBK View Post
...
But if you want to gauge hamstring weakness, even light, dumbbell, Romanian deadlifts can show you where you are. They target hamstrings and glutes and minimize quad involvement since you stop before your knees bend too much. Try just 40lbs in each hand, 3x10, maybe even 2x10 if it’s your first time, and your hamstrings may be sore for a couple of days....ced and stronger in general. AlthoughI couldn’t say how specific the benefits are to cycling.
What may be best for physique and overall balance is not be best for going fast cycling. Hamstrings are not so useful for cycling. As such some of the cycling weight trainers do not spec Romainian deadlifts, or full squats. Some folks that like the gym, or track, are into them. I am not a trainer, but I do hire them and have been into this some 40 years. Full range of motion is not so beneficial.

If you have gears and a road bike a stomp stomp pedal stroke will generally create more power than a smooth full range stroke. A balanced muscle system does not generate more power / speed. Then there is the increased mass. Cycling is a cardiovascular sport. Lifting body mass takes energy. I have seen the neuromuscular results from super heavy weights more beneficial than generating larger muscles. The video below is old and I have posted it many times. This is a real good cycling set I recorded of junior at age 15 with real good results from the riders that did it. He has since started using a program from a USAC training coach. The routines are quite close.

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Old 09-21-19, 10:01 PM
  #32  
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A month later Dec 7 was a very serious grass roots ride with 7 or so National Champs of some class, and the 2X Kona triathlon bike record setter in the final group.
Best I have measured then was 22W/kg a week or so before. I think this was higher considering who was there. Thing is the others that did this program with THIS (guy spotting above) coach got similar results. One is a pro, the other a gold medal winner.

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Old 09-22-19, 08:12 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
What may be best for physique and overall balance is not be best for going fast cycling. Hamstrings are not so useful for cycling. As such some of the cycling weight trainers do not spec Romainian deadlifts, or full squats. Some folks that like the gym, or track, are into them. I am not a trainer, but I do hire them and have been into this some 40 years. Full range of motion is not so beneficial.

If you have gears and a road bike a stomp stomp pedal stroke will generally create more power than a smooth full range stroke. A balanced muscle system does not generate more power / speed. Then there is the increased mass. Cycling is a cardiovascular sport. Lifting body mass takes energy. I have seen the neuromuscular results from super heavy weights more beneficial than generating larger muscles. The video below is old and I have posted it many times. This is a real good cycling set I recorded of junior at age 15 with real good results from the riders that did it. He has since started using a program from a USAC training coach. The routines are quite close.

https://youtu.be/hjSbJMaBu3k
Thanks for sharing the info and workout.
The vid shows some pretty heavy seated leg curls (20 seconds in) which focus on and isolate the hamstrings.
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Old 09-22-19, 08:20 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by CyclingBK View Post
Thanks for sharing the info and workout.
The vid shows some pretty heavy seated leg curls (20 seconds in) which focus on and isolate the hamstrings.
So sounds like a total contradiction to what I posted, but they are not for go forward, rather to balance the quads and warm up for the leg press.
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Old 09-22-19, 12:14 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
So sounds like a total contradiction to what I posted, but they are not for go forward, rather to balance the quads and warm up for the leg press.
Thanks, Iím just getting started so itís cool to gain insight from experts. As far as strength training, the benefits are 2-fold. It can be applied and customized to a specific sport. But it will also contribute to being a stronger athlete, less prone to injury, and contribute to better health and longevity.

Even if the hamstrings arent arenít a major contributor to cycling, even light deadlifts will strengthen the entire posterior chain of big muscles (calves, hamstrings, glutes, low back, and even mid/uppper back/traps and core) that, regardless of athletic endeavor, will provide a stronger structure/foundation for the muscles that are most active contributors.
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Old 09-22-19, 04:00 PM
  #36  
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I do cycling for fun, fitness etc. However, I also want to keep a good balance, and this just this ain't natural



I've been doing sets of 33 push ups, 11 pull ups (balance the push ups), and 1 leg squats (because nobody else does them and it looks impressive)

over time, I plan to also mix in some core stuff in between the sets.
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Old 09-22-19, 09:31 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by spectastic View Post
I do cycling for fun, fitness etc. However, I also want to keep a good balance, and this just this ain't natural



The issue is that cyclist (like other pro athletes) are primarily concerned with being the best at their sport, which is the primary source of their income. Their overall health takes a backseat during that period since they know they only have a limited time to compete.

Most other pros end their extreme training (getting way out of shape) once their careers have ended. I wouldn't say the cyclist physique is unhealthy, but it certainly is unbalanced.
I've been doing sets of 33 push ups, 11 pull ups (balance the push ups), and 1 leg squats (because nobody else does them and it looks impressive)

over time, I plan to also mix in some core stuff in between the sets.
Well don't wait too long to get to that core stuff. That's vital to your physical health and comfort since almost everyone suffers from back pain. I've always been an ab guy, but the imbalance is beginning to show with age. I try to isolate lower back now at least twice a week. So far, its working.
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Old 09-22-19, 11:26 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by CyclingBK View Post
...As far as strength training, the benefits are 2-fold. It can be applied and customized to a specific sport. But it will also contribute to being a stronger athlete, less prone to injury, and contribute to better health and longevity.
...
What you say is true, but it can make you slower, depending on where and how you race. As a junior mine was cycling focused and closely watched. As an adult, his overall physique seems to be more important than winning bike races. I think that is healthy, but adding 20-30 lbs of lean muscle don't make you a faster cyclist at the top levels. Doing many sets of pull-ups with dumbbells held by your feet is likely not going to make you faster.

If you want to lift to be fast, you have to train a bit differently than most trainers train/teach.
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Old 09-23-19, 12:05 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
The issue is that cyclist (like other pro athletes) are primarily concerned with being the best at their sport, which is the primary source of their income. Their overall health takes a backseat during that period since they know they only have a limited time to compete.

Most other pros end their extreme training (getting way out of shape) once their careers have ended. I wouldn't say the cyclist physique is unhealthy, but it certainly is unbalanced.
Well don't wait too long to get to that core stuff. That's vital to your physical health and comfort since almost everyone suffers from back pain. I've always been an ab guy, but the imbalance is beginning to show with age. I try to isolate lower back now at least twice a week. So far, its working.
we have professionals here?

I consider pushups somewhat of a core workout. Same with stretching, depending on how you do it. I've only started maybe 2 weeks ago, and have been steadily increasing the volume. it's not really strength training. more like maintaining overall fitness.



I've also picked up running and ultimate frisbee, just because it rains so damn much here. It's pretty refreshing to not be a pure cyclist.

Last edited by spectastic; 09-23-19 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 09-23-19, 05:49 AM
  #40  
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I don't know if any of you follow Kate Courtney on Twitter or Instagram, but if not, it might be worth doing so. She frequently posts videos from her gym sessions. They are impressive. And the weight work she has been doing certainly hasn't held her back at all.

It will be very different from the videos Doge posted.

And if you want to see heavy lifting, follow some track sprinters, who are more like power lifters who ride bikes - sometimes.
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Old 09-23-19, 01:18 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I don't know if any of you follow Kate Courtney on Twitter or Instagram, but if not, it might be worth doing so. She frequently posts videos from her gym sessions. They are impressive. And the weight work she has been doing certainly hasn't held her back at all.

It will be very different from the videos Doge posted.

And if you want to see heavy lifting, follow some track sprinters, who are more like power lifters who ride bikes - sometimes.
Her training (video below) is very similar to what my daughter did for goal keeping. And not surprisingly as the kind of things MTB/cx put you through vs road racing. I think the side to side, core, jump coordination stuff she is doing is not going to help a road racer as much as squats and leg presses. I MTB rider does use more upper body than all but a sprinter.
We've see Sagan training videos and those are different too, as would be track.

For reference:
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Old 09-23-19, 04:05 PM
  #42  
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Cycling is a pretty diverse sport, and what works for 1 person won't work for others. I wouldn't tell a climber or TT'er to train like a sprinter or xc'er.

In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.

This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
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Old 09-23-19, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by CyclingBK View Post
But if you want to gauge hamstring weakness, even light, dumbbell, Romanian deadlifts can show you where you are. They target hamstrings and glutes and minimize quad involvement since you stop before your knees bend too much. Try just 40lbs in each hand, 3x10, maybe even 2x10 if itís your first time, and your hamstrings may be sore for a couple of days.
I still cant figure out why, but I never feel RDL in my hamstrings or glutes. Worked up to sets of 10 with 300 lbs and just got a tired lower back and grip. I tried the single leg version with half the weight to isolate legs more than back. The legs feel it but more all over trying to stabilize than targeting hamstrings. OTOH my wife tried RDL and super DOMS in her hamstrings the next day.
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Old 09-24-19, 01:25 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
Cycling is a pretty diverse sport, and what works for 1 person won't work for others. I wouldn't tell a climber or TT'er to train like a sprinter or xc'er.

In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.

This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
Its all cycling Jeeves. There is specialization but its not that extreme.
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Old 09-24-19, 06:11 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Her training (video below) is very similar to what my daughter did for goal keeping. And not surprisingly as the kind of things MTB/cx put you through vs road racing. I think the side to side, core, jump coordination stuff she is doing is not going to help a road racer as much as squats and leg presses. I MTB rider does use more upper body than all but a sprinter.
We've see Sagan training videos and those are different too, as would be track.
That video doesn't show it, but she also frequently does squats and deadlifts.


Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
I still cant figure out why, but I never feel RDL in my hamstrings or glutes. Worked up to sets of 10 with 300 lbs and just got a tired lower back and grip. I tried the single leg version with half the weight to isolate legs more than back. The legs feel it but more all over trying to stabilize than targeting hamstrings. OTOH my wife tried RDL and super DOMS in her hamstrings the next day.
They will trash my hamstrings the first few times I do them. As I acclimate, it stops being an issue.
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Old 09-24-19, 10:01 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
I still cant figure out why, but I never feel RDL in my hamstrings or glutes. Worked up to sets of 10 with 300 lbs and just got a tired lower back and grip. I tried the single leg version with half the weight to isolate legs more than back. The legs feel it but more all over trying to stabilize than targeting hamstrings. OTOH my wife tried RDL and super DOMS in her hamstrings the next day.
The DOMS usually stop after you get used to an excercise. Or, you could be bending your knees too much/too early and involving the quads too much. The knees should be barely bent and then you stop the weight at mid shin as soon as you feel like they need to bend more
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Old 09-24-19, 10:21 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
That video doesn't show it, but she also frequently does squats and deadlifts.
I think a dead lift is a better cycling exercise. Squats are cool. They are much more whole body, but I have not seen them as effective as a more isolated exercise.

They do not isolate the legs as well as a machine. And I *think* the machines are less risk, at least at the same weight. Some of the top Japan track racers use just the press with single leg.
Unfortunately most videos are about getting big - mass building. The range of motion (ROM) is a big thing to them because a good ROM builds a bigger muscle.
They are into driving through heals (as mine did - to target quads/glutes) except cyclist use the ball of their feet, a Q factor and quite limited ROM. So proper gym technique may not be best for the cyclist, but you don't want to get hurt, and in general you do NOT want mass.

Below is an old one for my daughter where the focus was explosion (jumping higher). For that we focused on the best machine for that. This was an early video when we just got the machine.
I think maybe as a smaller stroke it could be a good cyclist tool too. The ROM is too big for a cyclist.
At the time (and likely still) it was popular for the elite girls to do a crossfit thing, similar to our MTB champion.
Mine has a specific goal as an under tall goal keeper wanting to play for the top D1 college - jump higher.
So mine used this machine, and then took lots and lots of soccer ball shots in training.
This would be similar to a cyclist (road vs crit vs track) focusing on just a few gym exercises for going faster then just riding miles.

The point being you need to pick the machine and routine for what you want to do, don't do extra and do your sport. Test in competition.


Little bro (the one in the video above) wanted to use it too. We let him try, then just had him do hill repeats with mom. We didn't want him getting big :-)
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Old 09-24-19, 11:20 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
Cycling is a pretty diverse sport, and what works for 1 person won't work for others. I wouldn't tell a climber or TT'er to train like a sprinter or xc'er.

In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.

This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
I like the above post a lot. For road cycling and endurance track, lighter is better and I find that my aerobic power increases as my weight goes down. Strength training can work but only for a limited time with the goal of prepping for a specific A race. And one has to know that giving up VO2/FTP during the strength period can be regained prior to the A event.

I have trained as a track sprinter and as an enduro. Sprinting is a maximal effort so leg freshness and max strength are the focus and weight less so. Endurance racing, even sprinting in a points race or road crit is sub maximum so strength is not as important and fatigue / long term training stress are the important metrics. Endurance is a speed killer.

Having said that, an endurance sprinter has to have enough endurance to make it to 200 meters before the finish line to sprint before the race is over.
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Old 09-24-19, 11:36 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Radish_legs View Post
Headed into off-season now. Thinking about adding lifting to what I do, as a means of getting better.

But how exactly would it help? Surely it will help with sprint and peak power. But can it also help with things like FTP and 5 minute power?

The question that isn't asked or answered is 'getting better at what.' As pointed out there are loads of studies and conflicting evidence. Everyone knows someone with some anecdotal evidence, but little is corroborated in the studies, which the exception that weight training is proven to help in some very specific applications (i.e. short standing start stuff, for example). If your goal is to improve as a road racer it may well be that your best bet is to ride and rest. And by rest I mean rest. No 'rest protocol,' but rest. If your goal is overall health and fitness it may be to include weight training. The caveat on that is few people actually spend the time learning how to properly do exercises to avoid injury, and there's a real tendency to macho the weights and unnecessarily add poundage at the expense of proper form. I did loads of single leg stuff to really hone in on proper form. I've lifted for nearly 40 years. That said, after a slew of injuries I've sold all my gear and really just ride and do yoga now. I'm in a discipline that encourages pencil arms and skinny bodies. Plus there are studies that support the idea that one can simply do yoga as an overall health and fitness routine. I think one should also be cautious about using Doge's kid as a test case for anything. He simply can be good doing whatever he wants. He's one of those kids people know who is almost good enough to be almost pro. The last bit probably being the insane desire to simply focus on doing it. I've known guys who could show up at races untrained and ride away from the field for the win. There's a reason they raced pro once. Most of us aren't that. To look at what folks like that do and map it over to something that looks like 3 hours of riding and a bunch of weight sessions, with the expectation to be competitive in our own races might lead to a bit of disappointment.
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