Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

How common is 300w for an hour?

Notices
"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

How common is 300w for an hour?

Old 02-26-21, 02:16 PM
  #201  
ridethecliche
Batw Creakcreak
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Dirty Jerz
Posts: 20,701
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked 230 Times in 134 Posts
burnthesheep he'd have to move his saddle to do that and that's a non-starter.
ridethecliche is offline  
Old 02-26-21, 05:13 PM
  #202  
furiousferret
Senior Member
 
furiousferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,276
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 824 Post(s)
Liked 433 Times in 232 Posts
I have mixed feeling about the TT stuff, I think @gsteinb is right that the necessity of it kills TT'ing as a sport. My SpeedConcept has only had maybe 1,000 miles on it since I quit Trialthlons, I couldn't justify dumping money into TT'ing if I didn't have that. The answer probably is somewhere in between, but if you aren't going to have a Merckx State Champs, Nats, people aren't really going push that (imo). If I got back into TT's I'd enjoy it again; I used to be able to go forever on a TT bike, now its not comfortable and I'd probably need 1,000 miles in the saddle to get there.

You go to Slowtwitch though and people are pretty religous about their set ups, it makes for a cool part of the sport. Some even glue the wells between the tires and rims, lol.
furiousferret is offline  
Old 02-26-21, 06:26 PM
  #203  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,734

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1227 Post(s)
Liked 1,119 Times in 704 Posts
Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
I have mixed feeling about the TT stuff, I think @gsteinb is right that the necessity of it kills TT'ing as a sport.
Have you all thought objectively about ROAD cycling numbers in the US versus abroad as well as TT cycling numbers?

The US participation rates are pitiful per capita versus Europe and the UK.

The UK is the cradle of civilization for TT and they (according to Timetrialling.uk forums) have club runs ALL the time. And every manner of level of cyclist bothers to show up and give it a try also! TT bike or not! Even in world champ colors Wiggins showed up to the local TT club run, and lookie lookie in the background......a pretty athletically and equipment diverse group of folks! I see a split of about 50/50 TT to road bikes also. Among folks that don't appear to be domestic pros either. Imagine that! The spent $1000 on a TT bike instead of beer or HBO max!

https://www.stickybottle.com/latest-...t-take-a-look/

I don't think it is fair to malign the ills of US road racing or TT to the TT bike when numbers outside of MTB, gravel, and cross are pitiful.

You've got a culture problem in the US is the deal. When you have separation of clubs and race teams as the norm in the US, average folks are left out of competition. When you have race teams that are offshoots of clubs instead, you get broader participation. IMO.

The reason TT suffers in the US is that it is largely an extension of local race groups being the distributor and focal point of TT instead of clubs.

Gravel and cross in the US, IMO, stems from clubs and "the people" of cycling. Road racing and TT is an extension of a more pretentious class of self proclaimed exercise "elites".

That's why I don't really buy into the "ban the TT bike and solve all ills" line of reasoning.

Especially when the most famous TT racer of all time was a broke amateur that probably had less money into their TT bike than I run through liquor in my house in a month.

You can't look at this homemade hour record holding bike made of used washing machine parts and tell me that the TT bike is why people don't do TT.

Please don't take offense, as opinions are like ass holes and everyone has one that usually stinks. Including mine. But IMO, it's because people don't want to be bothered to THINK. They just want to be handed a bike and told to hammer. Enter the analysis, thought, ingenuity, and mental work of TT and suddenly we've got a problem with it. To me, if you remove the thought and ingenuity from TT.........I'll leave the sport to the brute force thoughtless crowd and find something else to do.

TT with the TT bike rewards ingenuity. TT without the TT bike rewards nothing but being a brute. TT as a sub-sport of bike racing has adopted ingenuity and thought as a means to win. If it abandons that, what's left?

If a world champ and hour record holder broke amateur can conquer the TT world...........no excuses about "the TT bike":



signed book by sflemon, on Flickr
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 02-26-21, 08:05 PM
  #204  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,402
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 700 Times in 323 Posts
Is the goal to master slippery slope and false equivalency arguments?
gsteinb is offline  
Old 02-26-21, 08:19 PM
  #205  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,734

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1227 Post(s)
Liked 1,119 Times in 704 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Is the goal to master slippery slope and false equivalency arguments?
Prove it then.

If the TT bike is the problem everywhere, give it a go.

Yes, on a survey a meaningful amount would say dont want to buy one. But Id bet an equal or greater would either say didnt know I could or too pretentious.

I think both of us suffer a lack of data.

One data point irrefutable is that road racing is less popular per capita in the US, participant or spectator.

Were both left with largely feelings and anectdotes, so grand soapbox to stand on claiming false equivalencies and slipery slope.

My bottom line is that for the US the culture of RR is to blame. Not the geometry of the bike.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 02-27-21, 12:12 AM
  #206  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,351

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3326 Post(s)
Liked 299 Times in 214 Posts
How are we on ITT and short power now? The TT and power are not the same. You win the TT on speed. Power is a factor, speed is the measure. The position is a compromise for most (esp. under UCI restrictions).
Doge is offline  
Old 02-27-21, 04:29 AM
  #207  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,402
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 700 Times in 323 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Prove it then.

If the TT bike is the problem everywhere, give it a go.

Yes, on a survey a meaningful amount would say “don’t want to buy one”. But I’d bet an equal or greater would either say “didn’t know I could” or “too pretentious”.

I think both of us suffer a lack of data.

One data point irrefutable is that road racing is less popular per capita in the US, participant or spectator.

We’re both left with largely feelings and anectdotes, so grand soapbox to stand on claiming false equivalencies and slipery slope.

My bottom line is that for the US the culture of RR is to blame. Not the geometry of the bike.

Slippery slope argument is

If they eliminate TT bikes next they'll make guys race only on the hoods

False equivalency is

Obree built his bike with washing machine parts so guys should have no problem putting together a TT bike

"prove it," does not flow from pointing that out.

I can indeed prove that at races where they eliminated TT bikes they did not make the folks race on hoods.

And I can also prove that because a guy from the 90s who had bipolar built a bike out of spare parts laying around his house and won a world championship and set hour records will in no way impact whether TT bikes are a barrier to participation in TTs 30 years later.

By the way, geometry has nothing to do with it.

Lastly, the statement was

I know it isn't a popular opinion amongst the TT geeks, but I think it would be a better sport if they did away with TT bikes.

Since I was expressing my own opinion I'm not really thinking that I have any sort of obligation to provide a data set (particularly when it wasn't even what I was responding to). I won't be putting any surveys out in the field on this particular topic.

Last edited by gsteinb; 02-27-21 at 04:53 AM.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 02-27-21, 05:07 AM
  #208  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,402
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 700 Times in 323 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge View Post
How are we on ITT and short power now?.


gsteinb is offline  
Old 02-27-21, 05:53 AM
  #209  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,402
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 700 Times in 323 Posts
OK, really lastly, since Obree has always been my spirit animal.

The Obree story gets a lot of play because of the washing machine parts (i.e. he used a bearing). But it's really more about the efficacy of particular positions for cutting the wind and maximizing power. That takes some combination of time and money. Circling back to barriers to US TT participation.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 02-27-21, 11:07 AM
  #210  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,734

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1227 Post(s)
Liked 1,119 Times in 704 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
OK, really lastly, since Obree has always been my spirit animal.

The Obree story gets a lot of play because of the washing machine parts (i.e. he used a bearing). But it's really more about the efficacy of particular positions for cutting the wind and maximizing power. That takes some combination of time and money. Circling back to barriers to US TT participation.
Of course the story isn't about the washing machine bearings. The media just ran with that. It was about the egg and the superman. But he didn't go to wind tunnels or own a power meter or own a Powerpod CdA meter. Stopwatch and an outdoor track often times. My point was that Obree was not a rich man or a super well funded athlete.

Cliff notes: I just don't think cost is a fair argument for a barrier to racing TT's in the US. People will always arm themselves with more expensive kit that's more efficient.

There's a Kilo for sale right now local to me for $500. I've seen plenty of older tri bikes go for $300 around here. Clip ons are legal and $25. I've run pretty good times back before I had a TT bike on clip ons. It gave up a little comfort and speed to my current 13 year old TT bike, but I was out there.

There's always going to be the guy with the 2021 Trek Madone Project One with some 88mm deep Enve wheels with the most expensive tubeless tires and a brand new San Remo suit with a brand new Specialized Evade helmet at a road bike only TT. That setup would easily be 30w to 40w faster than somebody on a round tube road bike with box section wheels and all-season clinchers with a normal kid and helmet.

I know all sorts of folks who either own both a road bike and a cyclocross bike OR also folks who own one bike they swap wheels/tires on for doing both. I don't see how the multiple bike thing is an issue if you look at TT the way you look at cyclocross. You can do off-road stuff like cross and gravel alone on one bike. Or you can choose to buy another bike and do road and off-road. Or you can own a single bike that isn't optimized for either.

Same for TT.

Somehow, cost hasn't prevented triathlon in the US from having seemingly good numbers. Folks do local more affordable triathlons all the way up to big spend full Ironman events. Then you've got kit for a swim, a bike, and running! And folks use all manner of bikes in triathlons. I don't know what would happen to their numbers if they went road-bike only. I do feel like draft legal is less popular than regular triathlon. Drag legal is road bikes with just the little stub bar on the front.

I just wholeheartedly disagree that cost is a problem and still contend that in general road bike racing in the US isn't that popular and that no matter the rules people will always arm themselves to the teeth with kit.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 02-27-21, 11:11 AM
  #211  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,402
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 700 Times in 323 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Of course the story isn't about the washing machine bearings. The media just ran with that. It was about the egg and the superman. But he didn't go to wind tunnels or own a power meter or own a Powerpod CdA meter. Stopwatch and an outdoor track often times. My point was that Obree was not a rich man or a super well funded athlete.

Cliff notes: I just don't think cost is a fair argument for a barrier to racing TT's in the US. People will always arm themselves with more expensive kit that's more efficient.

There's a Kilo for sale right now local to me for $500. I've seen plenty of older tri bikes go for $300 around here. Clip ons are legal and $25. I've run pretty good times back before I had a TT bike on clip ons. It gave up a little comfort and speed to my current 13 year old TT bike, but I was out there.

There's always going to be the guy with the 2021 Trek Madone Project One with some 88mm deep Enve wheels with the most expensive tubeless tires and a brand new San Remo suit with a brand new Specialized Evade helmet at a road bike only TT. That setup would easily be 30w to 40w faster than somebody on a round tube road bike with box section wheels and all-season clinchers with a normal kid and helmet.

I know all sorts of folks who either own both a road bike and a cyclocross bike OR also folks who own one bike they swap wheels/tires on for doing both. I don't see how the multiple bike thing is an issue if you look at TT the way you look at cyclocross. You can do off-road stuff like cross and gravel alone on one bike. Or you can choose to buy another bike and do road and off-road. Or you can own a single bike that isn't optimized for either.

Same for TT.

Somehow, cost hasn't prevented triathlon in the US from having seemingly good numbers. Folks do local more affordable triathlons all the way up to big spend full Ironman events. Then you've got kit for a swim, a bike, and running! And folks use all manner of bikes in triathlons. I don't know what would happen to their numbers if they went road-bike only. I do feel like draft legal is less popular than regular triathlon. Drag legal is road bikes with just the little stub bar on the front.

I just wholeheartedly disagree that cost is a problem and still contend that in general road bike racing in the US isn't that popular and that no matter the rules people will always arm themselves to the teeth with kit.

Reading comprehension seems to not be your thing, so I'll be not answering anymore of these

It is not money. it is a combination of time or money. Obree had time, not money.

Money is not a barrier in Tri because it's absolutely a spoon in mouth sport. TIme is a barrier to success though. Money is a barrier in cycling because there are other things people can do with the exact same bike they already have.

Or believe what you want. Yes, you are one the very very hard few who are willing to suffer through a solo effort. Imagine mount washington sold out two 700 person fields a year (At $350) until the recession.

Maybe there are actually ways to grow the sport, particularly post pandemic.

/the end


edit: wrote TT where I mean Tri

Last edited by gsteinb; 02-28-21 at 04:12 AM.
gsteinb is offline  
Old 02-27-21, 05:28 PM
  #212  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,606
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked 163 Times in 68 Posts
Successful time trialling (STT) is a product of time and money. STT = (time)(money) (eq. 1)

We also know that time = money (eq. 2)

Substituting eq. 2 into eq. 1 we see that STT =( money)^2 (eq. 3)

Now if the root of all evil is money we can write: STT = ((Evil)^0.5)^2

Clearly, this simplifies to STT = Evil

Q.E.D.

Last edited by Enthalpic; 02-27-21 at 06:12 PM.
Enthalpic is offline  
Likes For Enthalpic:
Old 02-28-21, 01:13 AM
  #213  
Yep
no cat contains
 
Yep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Edinburgh Scotland
Posts: 842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 116 Times in 58 Posts
Just another random data point, but I think TT bikes have historically been a barrier to stage race participation for amateurs.
Yep is offline  
Likes For Yep:
Old 02-28-21, 09:09 AM
  #214  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,734

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1227 Post(s)
Liked 1,119 Times in 704 Posts
Originally Posted by Yep View Post
Just another random data point, but I think TT bikes have historically been a barrier to stage race participation for amateurs.
I dont know, so ask now, what about clip ons?

Allowed there?

Why not have no TT bike in lower level stage races and keep them for standalone TT?
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 02-28-21, 06:23 PM
  #215  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,351

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3326 Post(s)
Liked 299 Times in 214 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
... lower level stage races
Define that.
Doge is offline  
Old 03-01-21, 07:20 AM
  #216  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,734

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1227 Post(s)
Liked 1,119 Times in 704 Posts
Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Define that.
I'm not going to ever hear about it or see it on GCN or any bike related website I follow. Like, I'd have to know about the event already and then go find results.

You all probably know the UCI level 1.2.3.4.5.6 level. I don't.

I was getting at saying don't have TT bikes at the events where budget is likely going to really hurt teams. I would put the years of Gaimon being on Bissel in this being an example of where to not have them.

Maybe allow them to have clip-ons or ITU clip on bars for the TT for their road bikes.

I feel like part of this conversation in here with a few users makes it sound like that the TT revolves around stage races. When that simply isn't the only thing it's about. TT can be seen like cyclocross or track as being a unique discipline with unique rules and series and such.

Cross has rules about tire sizes, for example. Similar tool that's different for a different task. Track bikes have to be single gear fixed. Similar tool, different task.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 03-02-21, 05:13 PM
  #217  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,351

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3326 Post(s)
Liked 299 Times in 214 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I'm not going to ever hear about it or see it on GCN or any bike related website I follow. Like, I'd have to know about the event already and then go find results.

You all probably know the UCI level 1.2.3.4.5.6 level. I don't.

I was getting at saying don't have TT bikes at the events where budget is likely going to really hurt teams. I would put the years of Gaimon being on Bissel in this being an example of where to not have them.

Maybe allow them to have clip-ons or ITU clip on bars for the TT for their road bikes.

I feel like part of this conversation in here with a few users makes it sound like that the TT revolves around stage races. When that simply isn't the only thing it's about. TT can be seen like cyclocross or track as being a unique discipline with unique rules and series and such.

Cross has rules about tire sizes, for example. Similar tool that's different for a different task. Track bikes have to be single gear fixed. Similar tool, different task.
Misc ramblings. I had a very early morning....

I wish there was just one bike. I'd even prefer you have to ride the same bike you started with the whole event. I see the event as both equipment and athlete. I grew up watching rally racing and keeping the car together was also a big part.
But, since I don't get it my way...
There are those hired to WT teams that have not ever competed in a UCI event on a TT bike, or on unrestricted gears. You don't hear about these riders at the time, but they are affected.
An ITT where everyone is holding over 30mph needs different equipment than a race where the speed is low or under 20mph. Of course the equipment contributes to the needs.
Specifically a male junior can hold that higher speed while a 50+, or a woman pro can't - or couldn't.
As such, I favor equipment regulations based on ability, and that it is not age or gender based. Just have some 10 or so categories and reward those within them. Pretty much fondos with waves based on ability.
That is happening anyway also do to regulations. I can be more specific if needed.
Then everyone in Cat 1,2,3 could hold 300W for an hour. Few would, because it would not be needed. Cat 4,5,6 some could and Cat 7,8,9, 10 no one could.
Doge is offline  
Likes For Doge:
Old 03-02-21, 05:24 PM
  #218  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,351

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3326 Post(s)
Liked 299 Times in 214 Posts
I already posted that those that CAN do 300W/hour are uncommon.
Revising - hardly anyone ever as measured.

I'm going to revise my post and say those that actually DO 300W/hour are real rare, hardly anyone DOES 300W/hour. Take the USA (1:1M would be 350 people) - find a Strava segment of :50-:70min where there are even top 50 doing >300W.
Often those same 30 riders that do it up one climb are seen doing it up others. There are not all that many climbs that take an hour by those that can lay down that power.

When the climbs are epic as some posted here - they lose power due to O2 levels etc. So they didn't really do 300W for an hour.
In a race, they are generally trying to use as little power as they can, so there are some WT pros that have breakaways where they do that, but the normal case is racers do not.
If a national ITT took more than an hour, they would, but it doesn't, so they don't.
No question it is done for the hour record, but it is not measured using a PM, so was it real power? And could they have done 300W for an hour 5 min? Sure. Did they - no.

I was looking at my kids's and others climb segment where he had no PM but was close to those with a PM and published well over 300W/hour. I expect he did about 350W. So...I looked up his hour power for the time he was at college 2016 (light), 2020 (dark) in the pic below . Note again, he does not race with a PM.
No where near 300W ever, although he used a PM infrequently I just don't think he did outside of big climbs. The RR and crits didn't need that average.

I think actually recording 300W average over an entire hour is very very rare.


Last edited by Doge; 03-02-21 at 06:38 PM.
Doge is offline  
Old 03-02-21, 07:01 PM
  #219  
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lake Placid, NY
Posts: 21,402
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 891 Post(s)
Liked 700 Times in 323 Posts
not an hour, because they're too fast I guess

https://www.strava.com/segments/3237


but this is pretty close

https://www.strava.com/segments/761319
gsteinb is offline  
Old 03-02-21, 07:17 PM
  #220  
TheKillerPenguin
Nonsense
 
TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Vagabond
Posts: 13,822

Bikes: Affirmative

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 386 Times in 173 Posts
Beast coast strikes again.
TheKillerPenguin is offline  
Old 03-02-21, 10:09 PM
  #221  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,351

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3326 Post(s)
Liked 299 Times in 214 Posts
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
not an hour, because they're too fast I guess

https://www.strava.com/segments/3237


but this is pretty close

https://www.strava.com/segments/761319
Right. Really really hard to find a recorded (with a PM) actual 1 hour over 300W average. There are not that many.
You have to move down that list to Kris before you see someone that did it. So did Bart and Mark. But the top 5 didn't make it. They were too fast.

Last edited by Doge; 03-02-21 at 11:07 PM.
Doge is offline  
Old 03-03-21, 07:36 AM
  #222  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,734

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1227 Post(s)
Liked 1,119 Times in 704 Posts
I know 45min or 50min is some large % of an hour. At the same time, there is a reality to the power duration curve with people's physiology.

Part of this argument I feel some folks don't consider for racers and riders who are Cat 3 and "slower" is the nature of the distance of their races and the energy systems those folks typically use. They don't really have a use outside of a regional TT championship of 25mi to go all out for an hour. They need good 1min, sprint, 5min, 8min power. Totally different ratio of the energy systems used in the body. You can race successful crit and road as a 3 and slower likely not even ever doing an hour all out. I bet you could train some 3's without even ever having them do 2x20's and they do fine.

For a 20min test you're able to rely on your ability to nail some shorter 8min intervals. The next part of the whole "95%" or even "92%" or even "90%" of a 20 min test deal is that if you never hone the aerobic engine in that hour duration...........you get much past that 20min your power is falling like a rock as you near 45min and an hour. This is because you've built the foundation for power expenditure in the 1min thru 8min range, mostly. So you don't have the foundation at all for stuff beyond 20min.

I think the BEST bet for the largest group of people able to do this, starting at the lowest level of fitness..........would be competitive Ironman age-group athletes. Their training and racing pretty much centers around long duration. Their power duration curve probably looks crap from sprint to around 5min, then from 20min through 4hours is probably pretty darn flat. I'd put a nice beer bet on those dudes having the highest count of hour 300w achievers.

With track racing, I figure this is why you have amateurs doing 3km pursuit and elite doing 4km. The power and duration work out better for the body's energy system for the type of event they want. When I see folks doing 17min 10mi TT's, that's going to be a bit more power they can make in that 17min than if they had to go 25min like a lowly clubbie. 30w? 50w? Maybe even 75w? Going from 17min to 25min, that's a 50% longer race! That's almost not the same race at all!!!

This REALLY comes into play for running since your speed is pretty much perfectly linear to your "power". To me a 5k run race simply isn't the same measure for an elite running 17min or less where "joes" are doing 23 to 30min. Literally 50% longer a race for the "joes". This is really drastic with a half or full marathon. A pretty common goal for a recreation/fitness runner is to break 2 hours for a 1/2 marathon. That's like 9:15/mi. The current unofficial WR for a FULL marathon is now under 2 hours.

I bet this comes into play on those climbs also. Clubbies on Zwift take maybe up to 90min up Alpe du Zwift. I follow a domestic pro on Strava that lives near us that's done it in ~40min. Not even long enough to hit an hour.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 03-03-21, 02:58 PM
  #223  
jfmckenna
Tiocfidh r L
 
jfmckenna's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The edge of b#
Posts: 5,475

Bikes: A whole bunch-a bikes.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 422 Post(s)
Liked 96 Times in 59 Posts
Some time about ten years ago most of the Omniums and Stage races I did started doing away with TT bikes for some reason. Except for cat 1/2. I think it had to do with some juniors showing up with $6k TT bikes and winning. I used to be good a TT and won several while catting up and I always used clip on bars. I finally got a TT bike one day and I NEVER won a TT on that bike and in fact went back to my clip ons. The reason why is becasue I rarely trained on the TT bike and thought that it was some sort of miracle bike that would give me an extra 50 watts of streamlined power or something. With clipons you get to ride the bike you are used to riding using your regularly trained road racing muscle groups. Get on a TT bike without training and you just put yourself at a disadvantage. That's the way I see it anyway.
jfmckenna is offline  
Old 03-03-21, 04:26 PM
  #224  
waterrockets 
Making a kilometer blurry
 
waterrockets's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Austin (near TX)
Posts: 26,170

Bikes: rkwaki's porn collection

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked 85 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I think the BEST bet for the largest group of people able to do this, starting at the lowest level of fitness..........would be competitive Ironman age-group athletes. Their training and racing pretty much centers around long duration. Their power duration curve probably looks crap from sprint to around 5min, then from 20min through 4hours is probably pretty darn flat. I'd put a nice beer bet on those dudes having the highest count of hour 300w achievers..
Seems like most people see a 10% FTP drop in a TT position. Some of that is due to training time in position, but the aero benefits dictate that one make some power sacrifices in a TT position. So these people would likely need to be able to hold 333.3W for an hour on a road bike to see 300W in an aero position. I think this factor is enough that I'd need to see that there are indeed a lot of fast age groupers with 300W hours...
waterrockets is offline  
Old 03-04-21, 06:59 AM
  #225  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,734

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1227 Post(s)
Liked 1,119 Times in 704 Posts
Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
Seems like most people see a 10% FTP drop in a TT position. Some of that is due to training time in position, but the aero benefits dictate that one make some power sacrifices in a TT position. So these people would likely need to be able to hold 333.3W for an hour on a road bike to see 300W in an aero position. I think this factor is enough that I'd need to see that there are indeed a lot of fast age groupers with 300W hours...
I guess I meant they can do 300w for an hour on their road bike, not their TT bike.

I might be totally wrong though.

I just pulled some results for a few years of the NC Ironman at Wilmington and Raleigh. I know wind and course can matter. Nobody broke 25mph for the 56mi bike leg. A couple folks got close at the really elite end of things. I realize you ride an IM bike leg well under ftp, but still, the pointy end folks can usually ride the bike leg of a 1/2 IM like that at lower end sweetspot and still run. The run being for those fast folks only like 1:15 to 1:25 or so.

Interesting. I might have gotten that one wrong. I know Wilmington can have wind to deal with, but it's a flat course out/back lollipop.
burnthesheep is offline  
Likes For burnthesheep:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.