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Paris-Tours

Old 10-10-05, 04:47 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by gmason
A couple of other things ...

I just read on Cyclingnews that Devolder was told to ride on Gilbert's wheel in the last couple of Km to try for a win.

So where does he get off flipping Devolder off in the final?? "I'm pissed off with you because you didn't ride while I was sitting on??"


I reckon this is a great case for no radios. If it was 1990, both guys would've raced hard to the line, rather than hit panic stations that they might not be listening to the boss or make a bad decision.
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Old 10-10-05, 05:11 PM
  #27  
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Anyone know what saddle Gilbert was riding?
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Old 10-10-05, 05:21 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Drayko
Anyone know what saddle Gilbert was riding?

FDJ.com are sponsored in 2005 by Selle Italia.....from the little I can see in photos, I'm guessing it's a white Flite Ti so there's no embarassing black skids on those pristine knicks.

But that's a guess!

Last edited by ed073; 10-10-05 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 10-11-05, 08:25 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by ed073
So where does he get off flipping Devolder off in the final?? "I'm pissed off with you because you didn't ride while I was sitting on??"


I reckon this is a great case for no radios. If it was 1990, both guys would've raced hard to the line, rather than hit panic stations that they might not be listening to the boss or make a bad decision.
Nice Point! It's good to look back on the good ol' days when each man raced like a streetfighter on the bikes in the peleton. Now it's like a digital chess game managed from behind. Then again, if that was somebody like Erik Dekker or Jakob Piil in the break instead of Devolder or Gilbert, chances are that they would've dropped their breakaway companion in the last kilo and gone for it solo for the win. Vino messed up in a similar situation in the final stage of last year's Paris-Nice, scolding his breakaway partners in the final kilo while the peleton came up from behind and shut them all down. Only one guy could scold his breakaway companions, and then beat the snot out of them and win the race, that man being Johann Muesuew.

Amongst the pros, good timing for a "hit them hard" attack is everything. It's fair to say that Devolder and Gilbert were cooked in that last kilo. Gilbert tried to get away on one of the small hills in the last ten kilos, but Devolder got back on. The two men were waiting for a sprint, but with only about seven or eight seconds over the peleton in the last kilo, there would not have been time for slowing down for tactical games like setting up the other guy for the lead-out. Both men are strong and seasoned riders who have plenty of time in their careers to learn from what happened to them in the final of Paris-Tours, and condition themselves to be future winners of races like this.
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Old 10-11-05, 09:07 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by ed073
So where does he get off flipping Devolder off in the final?? "I'm pissed off with you because you didn't ride while I was sitting on??"
Ok, this is getting confusing. What am I missing? I didn't watch this, but the live report on cyclingnews.com seemed to indicate that from the 10k to go mark, Devolder did no work. What are you refering to when you are saying that Gilbert was sitting on? I think that if Devolder did no work, Gilbert had a right to be a bit pi$$ed.

Sure, Devolder was told not to work by Demol, but that doesn't mean he had to listen, his radio could have been on the blink. , and it seems Devolder told Gilbert his orders in the final kilos, but if I were Gilbert, I'd say screw your orders, let's get on the podium, and I'd have given Devolder and Demol the international signal.


Seems Postal is developing a pattern of telling it's riders not to work in breaks, ala Hincapie in the TDF.
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Old 10-11-05, 10:22 AM
  #31  
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I watched the final 25k on OLN. Devolder and Gilbert were working fine together, but all bets were off and war declared when Gilbert attacked Devolder on the small climbs near the finish. From that point on, each man was racing his own race. In the last few k's, Devolder and Gilbert were actually riding side-by-side chatting away in Belgian when they could've been putting in those precious few extra turns to gain much-needed time over the fast approaching peleton which was hell-bent on a field sprint finish. Gilbert must have been pissed with Devolder, but Gilbert needed to be thinking like a road racer instead of a sprinter and dropped Devolder when he sensed that he wasn't getting the cooperation he needed from Devolder. Minutes, not seconds, over the peleton in the final few k's gives you room to play sprint-positioning games with your breakaway partner. This is especially true on the finish of Paris-Tours. The Avenue de Grammont is long and straight. There is nothing to slow down a fast-charging peleton breathing down your neck and biting at your heels, no corners to dissapear behind, no traffic circles or islands to disrupt the peleton's advance. The two were caught 200m from the line, but they lost it in the last few k's.
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Old 10-11-05, 10:39 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by jpearl
Gilbert needed to be thinking like a road racer instead of a sprinter and dropped Devolder when he sensed that he wasn't getting the cooperation he needed from Devolder.
So you think Gilbert could have dropped Devolder, eh? If he couldn't gap him on the hills, he wasn't going to gap him on the flat run in. Gilbert has never considered himself a sprinter, but what the hey, maybe Devolder didn't know who he was riding with.

I can't figure out why, if Devolder was working in the final 10k, the news services, Gilbert, and Devolder are reporting that he wasn't.
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Old 10-11-05, 12:19 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by ed073
I reckon this is a great case for no radios. If it was 1990, both guys would've raced hard to the line, rather than hit panic stations that they might not be listening to the boss or make a bad decision.
I don't think radios had anything to do with it. If I was coming into the line with Gilbert, a guy who's making a career out of forcing or getting into a winning selection in the last 50k, and then winning the smaller sprint (Exhibits A, B and C) you better believe I'm going to try and force him to lead out, unless my DS is saying something like "his stem is loose and he won't be able to sprint." The only way I'd pull through inside a kilo is if I were racing for second. Of course, the radio does make a nice excuse for the reporters, in case I'm worried about looking like a jerk after I make us both lose.

Anyway, to think that a DS has any pull at all over a rider inside the final Kilo is a fairly poor assumption. Erik Zabel generally takes his radio out during the final run to the line (he forgot to at the 2004 San Remo), and in the 2003 Tour, when Jakob Piil won a 2-up sprint with Fabio Sacchi, team manager Bjarne Riis' instructions were just "stay calm and it will be no problem." So don't imply that radios make the riders into brainless automaton, forever at the whims of their earpieces; Euro pros might not be especially well educated, but to get to the top level in such a tactical sport as cycling requires some amount of race smarts and savvy.

At any rate, a two-man sprint is one of the most tactically challenging situations in bike racing (which is why match sprints on the track are so popular), and they generally play out at lower speeds. Thus, two-man breaks almost never win by less than a few minutes - any hesitation and a close field will catch them. Look at Chavanel/Horner at Stage 10 of this year's TdF, or O'Grady/Geslin on Stage 6 in 2003. Last year's Paris Tours winner, Erik Dekker, dispatched his companion over a k before the line, probably knowing that a sprint between the two of them would have only let the field catch up.
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Old 10-11-05, 01:01 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by cosmo_the_third

At any rate, a two-man sprint is one of the most tactically challenging situations in bike racing (which is why match sprints on the track are so popular), and they generally play out at lower speeds. Thus, two-man breaks almost never win by less than a few minutes - any hesitation and a close field will catch them. Look at Chavanel/Horner at Stage 10 of this year's TdF, or O'Grady/Geslin on Stage 6 in 2003. Last year's Paris Tours winner, Erik Dekker, dispatched his companion over a k before the line, probably knowing that a sprint between the two of them would have only let the field catch up.
Indeed, two man breaks seem almost doomed from the start, even if they do manage to get close to the finsh line.
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Old 10-11-05, 05:14 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by cosmo_the_third
I don't think radios had anything to do with it. If I was coming into the line with Gilbert, a guy who's making a career out of forcing or getting into a winning selection in the last 50k, and then winning the smaller sprint (Exhibits A, B and C) you better believe I'm going to try and force him to lead out, unless my DS is saying something like "his stem is loose and he won't be able to sprint." The only way I'd pull through inside a kilo is if I were racing for second. Of course, the radio does make a nice excuse for the reporters, in case I'm worried about looking like a jerk after I make us both lose.

Anyway, to think that a DS has any pull at all over a rider inside the final Kilo is a fairly poor assumption. Erik Zabel generally takes his radio out during the final run to the line (he forgot to at the 2004 San Remo), and in the 2003 Tour, when Jakob Piil won a 2-up sprint with Fabio Sacchi, team manager Bjarne Riis' instructions were just "stay calm and it will be no problem." So don't imply that radios make the riders into brainless automaton, forever at the whims of their earpieces; Euro pros might not be especially well educated, but to get to the top level in such a tactical sport as cycling requires some amount of race smarts and savvy.

At any rate, a two-man sprint is one of the most tactically challenging situations in bike racing (which is why match sprints on the track are so popular), and they generally play out at lower speeds. Thus, two-man breaks almost never win by less than a few minutes - any hesitation and a close field will catch them. Look at Chavanel/Horner at Stage 10 of this year's TdF, or O'Grady/Geslin on Stage 6 in 2003. Last year's Paris Tours winner, Erik Dekker, dispatched his companion over a k before the line, probably knowing that a sprint between the two of them would have only let the field catch up.
Nice post. Gilbert does have sprint victories over Kirchen and Marzoli, the latter holding a victory over Bettini in a gallop, but neither is really a specialty sprinter. Still, Gilbert's palmares is much better looking than Devolder, who hasn't outsprinted anyone of significance in a major race, so it would make sense that Demol would have Stijn sit in after the 1k banner but it doesn't make sense that he would have him sitting in from 10k out. Getting Stijn on the podium in that race would be an important accomplishment in Stijn's career, maybe his biggest result to date, and would give Discovery nice exposure.

I still think Dirk blew it if that is how he called the race.
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Old 10-11-05, 05:19 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot

I still think Dirk blew it if that is how he called the race.

+1
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Old 10-11-05, 10:59 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
I still think Dirk blew it if that is how he called the race.
Eh, maybe Disco's big enough that they can afford to race only for the win, but yeah, I agree it would have been better to pull through.
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Old 10-13-05, 03:41 AM
  #38  
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Gilbert can sprint, anyone see his acceleration at Milan San Remo this year?

He is not a bunch sprinter, but I think he will develop and be very similar to Bettini and have similar qualities. He may not be that fast at the moment, but he has the potential. He is so much more than a sprinter.
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Old 10-15-05, 01:32 PM
  #39  
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There seem to be just as many tactical errors made now, as in the '70's and 80's..but the blame has switched, to a certain extent;-)

Every rider who doesn't win has a reason, surely, radio or no radio?
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Old 10-22-05, 01:40 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by jpearl
Holy friggin' Eric Zabel!!!

You gotta love Zabel. He's not a big drama rider like Lance Armstrong or Jan Ullrich, just a happy-go-lucky guy that gives us year after year of great racing and great results.
I too, really enjoy seeing Zabel race and from all acounts he is a gentleman. But when it comes to bike racing he is not a "happy-go-lucky" guy. Read up on his training and racing scehdule. Brutal.
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Old 10-22-05, 01:41 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jpearl
Holy friggin' Eric Zabel!!!

You gotta love Zabel. He's not a big drama rider like Lance Armstrong or Jan Ullrich, just a happy-go-lucky guy that gives us year after year of great racing and great results.
I too, really enjoy seeing Zabel race and from all acounts he is a gentleman. But when it comes to bike racing he is not a "happy-go-lucky" guy. Read up on his training and racing scehdule. Brutal.
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Old 10-22-05, 01:41 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by jpearl
Holy friggin' Eric Zabel!!!

You gotta love Zabel. He's not a big drama rider like Lance Armstrong or Jan Ullrich, just a happy-go-lucky guy that gives us year after year of great racing and great results.
I too, really enjoy seeing Zabel race and from all acounts he is a gentleman. But when it comes to bike racing he is not a "happy-go-lucky" guy. Read up on his training and racing scehdule. Brutal.
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