Snicklefritz

Since this is my first year of racing, I'm experimenting with different kinds of attacks and so forth in training rides with friends/teammates (we have periodic attack fests during certain workouts). I noticed a few things that puzzle me and I'm wondering if someone here has some insight on them. A few days ago, we were doing some hill work with a long extended climb at the end of a 4 hour day. Climbing up the hill I started off at the front and gradually drifted back. I did ok at first, but towards the top of the hill I was beginning to feel the effort from having done some really hard climbing the day before. By the time I get to the top, I wasn't feeling like I had much juice left in my legs. From RPE and HR, I was definitely at LT or slightly above it. The rest of the people started back down the hill. I wasn't familiar with the territory so I rode conservatively, not wanting to be too fast. But then I decided lets see if I can catch up to them. They were about 1/4 mile ahead. So I start going downhill and start feeling really good - all of a sudden all this power comes out of nowhere and I not only caught up to the group, but dropped them by a significant margin. during the downhill part I could really feel that I was putting the power down (I wish I had a PT to measure it!) and could see that HR was up, indicating that I was working hard, but I felt great.

I wouldn't have thought that I could do an attack like that and make up that distance and drop the pack given how I felt towards the end of the climb. So is this a lactate clearance issue? meaning that starting the downhill gave it a chance to dissipate? Or is it a question of using different muscles climbing vs powering down the hill? I was just wondering why I felt so great on the downhill and not so good finishing the climb just seconds before. In terms of build, I am more of a sprinter and look like it too. small and compact.

Vinokurtov

HR doesn't always correspond to LT, there's a lot of variables there. It's likely you went ST on the climb and needed to recover. Pretty fine line there.

Some people blow more dramatically than others, but recover quickly. I find I explode more dramatically earlier in the year and the further during a race/ride it gets.

Snicklefritz

What is "ST"?
On climbs, I feel like I can blow up towards the end of a long climb if I try to spin at 75-80 rpm like the climbers in my group, but I do find that I recover very rapidly 15-30 sec. after the climb is over. what types of training/intervals help delay the point at which blowing up occurs? or the speed with which one recovers?

EventServices

I hate to over simplify things, but a lot of this has to do with the brain.
You WANTED to catch the other riders.

Yes, you were using different muscle groups, and yes you were fighting the effects of the long climb, but the fact that most people will overlook/downplay is that the body is capable of much more than you're normally willing to give.
Motivation is a wonderful tool to have in the bag.

Try that exact same effort on a solo ride.

Voodoo76

Yea, the "Carrot on a Stick" analogy has been around a long time for good reason. From experience you can sometimes feel your worst, then best in over very short time periods (the racing lesson here being don't drop just because you feel like hell). I wouldn't try to over analyze it.

If the discussion is "Racing Scenarios" I would suggest not attacking on downhills if that's where you were going with this.

Snicklefritz

well, I was curious about that...on my team we've been practicing attacking in different situations. Why would you avoid not attacking on a downhill? because people expect it and therefore the element of surprise is gone? Given that I'm not much of a climber, I'd probably not want to attack uphill because I'd probably blow up.

jfmckenna

I usually find it easier to go down hills too

Usually you don’t attack going down because you really won’t make up too much time but if you descend like a rock and have the guts to take fast corners you can make up time. How much do you weigh? I ask because at 190LBS I go down real fast, faster then most of the lightweights I train with. So My techniques for climbing is to get out and attack the base of the hill get passed by the group half way up and catch up on the down side.

Snicklefritz

right now I weigh 140, ideal weight is 120. My goal is to get to 125 which is more realistic and easily doable if I stay away from cookies and ben and jerry's, except as a once in a while treat
(I'm a small female, 5'3")

regarding your method of attacking, I guess that is to get a head start in a way so that you stay close to the pack once you get to the top as opposed to going off the back right away and then having to make up too much ground?

Voodoo76

In simple terms you want to attack in situations where a single rider or small group of riders have an advantage or are even up with a large group. Some examples; Climbs, significant cross winds, technical turns (for you crit riders). On a typical downhill the field can sit up, give you a little rope, then reel you in like you were going backwards.

I wouldn't say never attack on a down hill but would suggest you do it with the intent of forcing a selection in the field or hanging out front to see if anyone joins you. Rather than looking at it as some "Winning Move".

Jet-man

Snickle - you must be a man among boys. I predict you'll be a Cat 1 by the end of the season.

Physiologically it really doesn't matter what's going on. When racing, if you pay strict attention to max HR, LT and all of that you'll likely get left behind. It's about knowing your limits, knowing how to suffer and knowing when to suffer even more (and sprinting & sprint positioning if you're doing flat crits)

Another thing - there is no excuse for getting dropped on descents even if you don't know the road - stick w/ the leaders and take the same lines through corners as they do & you'll be fine. If/when you ride w/ fast descenders, you'll not be able to ketchup.

timmhaan

your scenario is pretty common among racers actaully. sometimes all you need to recover is a very brief pause.

jbhowat

Read the post, its a she.

OK

Read the post, she got dropped on the climb and then caught up on the descent. Or at least thats how I read it. Also, I'm not sure where you ride but on some of the rides here if people were to stay with the leaders they could easily get killed. If you aren't comfortable controlling the bike at 60mph+ on unfamiliar roads, don't follow that pro who's got his hands on the tops with his chin on the stem. You aren't going to be able to safely follow him if you don't have the skills. I've seen some local pros in this position easily going easily 65+mph. We were going 55 in a line and got passed like we were standing still. Originally I heard him coming up and thought it was a motorcycle passing us.... I don't care who you are - following the line of someone like that may not be the best idea if you aren't very familiar with the road.

C4Byke

hehe, yea being 170 lbs can sure seem like a second wind on the downhill. Sit on your top tube, grap the bars next to the stem, get your knees in, head down and let gravity do its job.

jfmckenna

Yes thats the idea in theory

Snicklefritz

yeah, that's what happened. I got dropped towards the top of the climb and then caught up and dropped the others on the descent. I waited a bit until I felt comfortable before flying own. The training road was a narrow one, with several hairpin turns and traffic. In a race the road would have felt doable, but I didn't want to take too many chances at going around a corner and having a collision with a car coming up the other side. earlier in the day one of my teammates almost got hit by an SUV that was trying to back out of a parking area.

so for someone like myself that is more of a sprinter type, what would be good scenarios for me to attack in if I'm in a race with (a) rollers (b) short steep hills (ie 30 sec-1 min hill) or (c) longer extened climbs? What a previous person said about attacking on a descent makes sense. I can see how I could get reeled in quickly if the pack was working well together.

merlinextraligh

power to weight ratio has a lot to do with your scenario. I'm 200lbs so it is not unusual for me to give ground to climbers on big climbs. but downhill, my weight is advantage, and now we're talking more about power to wind resistence, and i descend fast enough that often I catch back on. If you have a lower power to weight ratio than the people you ride with, but a higher overall power output, and weigh more, it would be expected that at the limit you will climb slower but descend faster.

Voodoo76

That sheds a whole different light on it. From a fellow sprinters perspective, learn to expend expend energy when it is to your advantage and save it when it is to your advantage (and you have a built in advantage in most domestic races). Some very basic ideas rather than specific scenarios:

1. Sit back and counter more than initiate action, a huge advantage. Ride with the attitude that other riders have to deal with you more than you have to worry about them.
2. The huge advantage a sprinter has is that a break or attack doesnt have to be small in numbers for you to have a good shot at a win. Look to join or bridge to attacks by other riders, nothing beats having the best finish in a break with 4 or 5 horses.
3. If you are feeling good think about starting or joining attacks that push the pace, reduce the field, eliminate other sprinters. No good or bad time for this, but esp. if you sense other riders are struggling.

Some riders would consider this a lazy or "wheel sucking" style of racing, coincidentally they are usually the same riders you are blowing by at the line. So develop a thick skin as well.

Mr_Super_Socks

Or do it superman-style like the T-Mobile rider at the very end of this video . .. .
https://video.t-mobile-team.com/en/vi...5&type=dsl-old
(Unfortunately, you have to watch a long, goofy video of Jan et al. mtn climbing, sailing and walking around in blindfolds to get to it.)

DannoXYZ 

I'll second voodoo's suggestion to conserve as much energy as possible. Expending energy on a downhill gains you less of an advantage than anywhere else due to the higher speeds. You'll get +3mph as opposed to +5mph on the flats for example. The other question would be, "are they really working hard down the hill or just cruising/coasting".


(a) rollers - momentum is key on rollers. So don't get stuck behind anyone when you hit the rollers. Keep your speed constant as before. You may have to increase output by +50-100w when you hit the rollers. Pace yourself so that you don't blow up until you're over the top and picked up a couple MPH. Then hop back into the pack and hide. Couple of benefits, first a lot of people shift down and slow down when they hit the roller. By keeping your momentum up, you lose less speed and will pull ahead. Due to the grade of the hill, drafting isn't as effective, so you'll make the climbers work to keep up with you and they can't draft... heh, heh... If the rollers are small and short such that you can easily maintain same speed without blowing up after the top, then just stay in the pack and hide.

(b) short steep hills (ie 30 sec-1 min hill) - Similar to rollers. Attack near the bottom as people are shifting down. As they slow up, you keep on going. Pace yourself so that you blow up after the top. You might even work the climbers a little by actually picking up the pace so that they have to sprint up the hill to stay with you. Hurts the climbers more than sprinters when you do this. Again, pace yourself so that you don't blow up before reaching the top. You want to get over and up to speed before relaxing.

(c) longer extened climbs? - you definitely want to attack well before the hill to get as much of a lead as possible. If you can be 300-500m ahead of them by the time you hit the hill, you can rest easier and pace yourself comfortably so that they catch you right at the top. Then pull into the pack and hide on the downhill.

cyclezen

I'll prolly be very contrary to some of the advise here, but where and when to attack is very much dependent on the course, composition of the field, point within the race as well as personal condition.
A course descent requiring skilled bike handling presents a different scenario from a long, straight, high speed run. Having 20 or 30 miles to the finish makes a big difference from making a move 2 - 3 miles from the finish.
Rollers are prolly the easiest to figure out. Unless you're incredibly Eddy, no one, neither climber or stayer, has advantage on these. My key is to conserve, look for breaks at the top of a few good riders and be positioned advantageously. Don't be caught behind a rider who hasn't geared properly at the base of a roller, position near the front early at the base, don't spinout early - worst is to be too low geared and having to drop a gear and 'sprint' up to speed - pushing a little is better than spinning too much.
I use 'training' group rides with tough rollers to 'force' myself, approach blowing up, gauge my ability to recover. You're not riding for a 'win', you're training - punish yourself up rollers, punish the group. Do it for a few months and you'll eventually be steamin over the top while the rest are still gaspin.

1-2 minute hills - very difficult place to attack if you're a sprinter. Hill is too long to blow over, climbers might lose a few yards but will surely reel any attempt in by the top. A Hard attack at the base will have most any sprinter fully anerobic, gasping at the top and blown. And what would be the purpose?

long climbs - it is conceivable that the approach to a long climb will allow some riders to get a few hundred yards off the front as the field prepares for the long climb. But given 'sprinters' skills, its best not to press too hard cause the climbers WILL be on your butt and away up the hill in no time flat, with you working to recover the earlier effort on the approach and the climbing effort that follows it.

Attacking on descents - IF there is a good reason to be well ahead at the base of a descent (like a close finish, terrain after the descent that equalizes any advantage a charging pack might have) and the descent is 'technical' VS straight and fast; then attack before the top with enough momentum to carry a gap over the top, use the downhill to aid the 'recovery' and continue the downhill attack. On a technical descent a single rider has as much advantage as their own skill,speed and mettle will allow. The pack will only be as fast, and is limited, as the front 4 or 5 riders are able to go. If you have strong climbers who are not strong descenders then the field will take quite some time in passing them on tough descents.

Long, straight descents - conserve, conserve - prolly the worst place to attack.

in the end, if someone doesn't believe they're a climber then attacks on uphills are rarely a happy thing.
if a rider is close to being a decent climber, then the work to becoming one is well worth the effort.

Vinokurtov

ST=Superthreshhold. It's the point past where you're clearing lactate. You're essentially anaerobic. You can carrot and stick all you want at this point, but if your body can no longer supply adequete 02 to your muscles you ARE going to blow, regardless of how tough you are or how bad you want it.

The mental aspect come in when you are really hurting and want to stop the pain. It's the difference between a good time trial ride or a bad one, where you back off a touch even though you're still aerobic, because you hurt.

Long base rides and intervals where you are pushing into ST are pretty much they way to move LT. Monitoring with a HR meter or better still a powermeter will let you teeter on the edge without blowing. If you're racing you don't want to go anaerobic for too long and blow; the recovery isn't a 1:1 ratio, and it's a good way to lose touch with the pack.

Remember this advice when we need to chase down Pizzaman.