"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

What makes a good sprinter?

Reply

Old 03-16-06, 02:01 PM
  #1  
Snicklefritz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Snicklefritz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
What makes a good sprinter?

If you had to make physiological comparisons of guys like Boonen, Petacchi, etc. what would one find?
Is being a good sprinter just a matter of having more fast-twitch muscle fibers compared with the next
guy (assuming similar vo2 max), or is there something else to it?
Snicklefritz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-06, 02:18 PM
  #2  
2Rodies
El Diablo
 
2Rodies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Austin Tx, Ex So Cal
Posts: 2,750

Bikes: Cannondale CAAD8/Record 10s, Felt DA700 Chorus 10s,

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
If you had to make physiological comparisons of guys like Boonen, Petacchi, etc. what would one find?
Is being a good sprinter just a matter of having more fast-twitch muscle fibers compared with the next
guy (assuming similar vo2 max), or is there something else to it?

We just did a sprint clinic with the number one ranked rider for '05 in Texas, a guy named David Wenger. David is about 5'7" not really all that strong looking but man this guy has a wicked sprint. Much of what he taught us was about riding smart, being in the right position with right gear. He says most of the guys he races against are faster sprinters but he is a smarter one. He has a real sense for where to place himself and when to unleash his sprint.

One of my teammates is considered to be one of the fastest sprinters in Austin. He wasn't winning very many races though. Much of this was because of tactics he used during the race and then just trying out muscle guys who were sprinting smarter. He won his last race and did it going away, but he raced a much smarter race and used great positioning at the end to really take a dramatic win in a big bunch sprint.

From a physiological stand point I have no idea. I'm a very mediocre sprint but I'm a good climber and good TT'er. I have no idea what that means
2Rodies is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-06, 02:38 PM
  #3  
Cypress
Giving you the business.
 
Cypress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corvallis, Oregon
Posts: 4,441

Bikes: Ridley Noah, Giant Trinity Advanced, Specialized Crux

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I came from a mountain bike back ground, so explosive power was no stranger to me when I converted. You have to man-handle the bike and make it your b1tch. Know how fast you want to go and do whatever it takes to get to that speed.

I used to do a fast group ride up north that included "yellow signs". Go out with a group of people(or just a friend) and make every yellow sign a sprint point. It's a good way to figure out how much room you need to get up to your top speed.
__________________
Originally Posted by Moderator
Dear Cypress,

You have received an infraction at Bike Forums.
Cypress is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-06, 06:52 PM
  #4  
Jet-man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 243

Bikes: '06 Six13 DA, 180s, 140 0 stack stem, KEOs: MTB is SC Superlight XT/SRAM/Avid Jucy/F100x

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It helps a lot to be pretty strong - and smart - and to have a 'killer instinct.' You can only train for so much - snap, top end, power - and read so much about what position to be in and when. There is another component about knowing 'how' to win that's (IMHO) innate. I've known many strong smart guys that had a really difficult time (read couldn't) win[ning] races. Being a hyperly competitive type A person can help that... I love to suffer and I love to see other people suffer and I like even more to make people suffer - mainly in a cycling sense
Jet-man is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-06, 08:06 PM
  #5  
Phatman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NC
Posts: 3,411
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I dont think that genetics is as important as you make it seem. I mean, sure, you have to be able to put out a lot of peak wattage. however, I think that pack instincts and positioning are more important. I put out a lot of power, but I am a terrible sprinter. I'm working on the positioning thing, so that I can actually use my sprint, but the pack maneuvering doesnt come naturally to me.
Phatman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-06, 09:20 PM
  #6  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,375
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Genetics, a killer instinct and this coach.

Training info straight from the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Australian National Sprint Cycling Team:





I am currently the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Australian National Sprint Cycling Team and have been for about five years. I am also the Strength Scientist for the South Australian Sports Institute in Adelaide, Australia, where the National Sprint Program is based. In addition, for "fun", I help coach a group of developmental sprint cyclists, which form the core of our SA State Sprint team and half of whom are now in the Top 10 sprinters in Australia, which would make them National champions in all but a handful of countries and, when I get time, I roll around the track myself.

Some points (for free):

1. We don't keep any secrets from anyone, including the Poms, the Frogs, Ze Germans or the Yanks. In fact, people just generally don't believe what we tell them, disagree or their programs (or minds) are too set in concrete to change. We invite other top riders to train with us and they get faster, but they go home and do the same old thing. The Head Coach, support staff and I are happy to tell anyone and everyone what we do. We usually just don't get time to sit around on chat rooms or make social chit chat on E-mail, let alone write a book.

What Charlie Walsh and Gary West used to do with our sprinters when they were the Head Coaches was state of the art at the time and they are both great coaches. You will not find anyone in Australian Cycling who will question that or say a word against what they did at the time, but times have changed and those methods are not quite enough to consistently hit the top spots now, although you can still be troublesome internationally if you've got natural speed. The top speeds have gone to a new level and to reach that level, you have to specialise your sprint riders more. I'm sure if Charlie and Westy were still coaching the Oz team, they wouldn't be doing exactly the same things they were doing ten years ago. They are too smart for that.

Most of what we do is based on methods and research that have been around for decades but have not been applied to cycling. It has mostly been used in athletics and we have copied a lot from that and what the French and Germans have done at various times. The Brits were formerly coached by our current Head Track Coach, so they do a lot of similar things too. What the Dutch are doing now, I'm not sure, but they were mostly all speed skaters before they were top cyclists, so maybe there's something in that.

2. We are constantly trying new things and changing what we do, so what we do this year will be different to what we did last year and so on. Australia is a small country and is competing with some real powerhouses in terms of talent pools, resources and money that we can't even dream of matching, so we have to be a step ahead or we're not in the race.

3. What sprinters did 10 years ago is completely different to what most of the top sprinters are doing now. The critical factors that determine success or failure have changed. Tactics have changed and the tournament formats have changed. Training that would win 10 years ago is generally not as successful today, but every dog has his or her day and some old-school trainers still come out on top now and again, but it is happening less and less.

4. Our philosophy is simple. Most events are speed endurance. To win you need to go faster for longer than the other guy or gal. Some riders are better at faster, some are better at longer, but they generally need a bit of both. To have speed endurance, first you need speed. If you can't ride 5.0 for a flying 100m, you won't ride 10.1 for a 200m. Speed is hard to train and takes a long time. Endurance is easy by comparison and we just chuck that on at the end. To get up to speed, you need acceleration and that means power. Power is a combination of strength and speed. The speed part you get on the track, the strength you get in the gym. Low cadence power (0-120rpm or so) we can train in the gym too, but high cadence power (120-200rpm) is too fast to do in the gym and you generally need to be chasing a maniac on a motorbike (e.g., our Head Coach) down the bank to increase that. Or at least, someone faster than you to break the wind so you can go overspeed.

5. Aerobic Capacity (VO2max, AT) is the base for enduros, strength is the base for sprinters. We do three gym sessions and two track sessions for most of the year. Road is just for recovery, to keep them a little bit lean and to keep the sprinters out of the pub and out of trouble. It is generally a max of 2hrs, but mostly only 1 and is very easy - talking the whole time.

6. When strength is the focus, we don't care what numbers they pump out on track, just what they lift. When power or speed is the focus, we back the gym off (2/wk and easier sessions) so we can get the numbers we want on the track (3-4/wk). Generally, half the year is spent focussed on strength and half on power and speed (roughly - depends on competitive calendar) although we always train a bit of everything, it's just the proportion of each that changes. The strength work is not all done in one block. We cycle through strength, power and speed at least twice per year.

7. Gym is generally 3-4sets of 3 max lower body strength or power lifts - early in the phase, two strength and one power, later, two power and one strength. I don't use cleans, jerks or snatches with our current riders - they are too technical for maximal efforts unless you have years of experience. We do one bilateral strength lift each session for "core" strength (Squat, Deadlift, Romanian Deadlift) - usually lower back is the limiting factor not legs and this is the only reason I use these lifts - for back strength in standing starts. The rest of the lifts are unilateral. How many feet do you push each pedal with at one time? If you train bilaterally you get stronger bilaterally and unilateral strength lags behind. If you train unilaterally, you get stronger unilaterally. It's a neural thing.

Single-leg Press is our bread and butter. Different foot and hip positions for different phases of pedal stroke, standing, seated, etc. I use high speed video to match joint angles and velocities for each rider. We mainly do it ballistically for power - throw the sled as far as you can - at different percentages of max to match up to different muscle contraction velocities for different phases of the acceleration (different cadences). We do a lot of single-leg plyos on boxes, stairs, bunjee sleds, etc during speed phases. Strength and power gains are extremely specific and do not necessarily transfer well. When Ryan Bayley beat Sean Eadie in the Commonwealth Games sprint final in 2002, Sean was tripling 250kg for a parallel back squat and Ryan was tripling 120kg On single-leg press, they were much closer (20kg) and so was the racing.

Single-leg squats (front and back) and deadlifts usually make up the third exercise and are as much for pelvic stability as strength. I'm going to try single-leg pulls and cleans this year, but these will not be our primary power exercises - more of a preparation for the work before Beijing. We have done SL squats, deadlifts and pulls for years now and the riders are pretty stable. An example of numbers - our best single-leg squat figures are 3 @ 165kg on each leg (just over 360lbs). The weakest of the girls (who just entered the squad this year) is 3 @ 80kg on each leg, but she only weighs about 50kg. Two riders have done the 165kg so far. We have riders who can do sets of standing hops onto 1m+ boxes. The lowest is for one of the girls and is a 70cm box for sets of 8 each leg.

8. Upper body, we do two exercise per session (a push and a pull in the same plane of movement, different each day) in general prep and two per week in specific prep (both pulls) so they can keep hold of the handlebars in standing starts. The girls are starting to push themselves off the bike, their legs are so strong (around 3 @ 250kg on each leg for the girls and up to 350kg for the guys on SLP). Abs and core, we do two per session - one mainly flexion, one mainly extension. Some have rotational or lateral components, but not isometric holds or pilates mumbo jumbo. If their "core stability" is poor, they wouldn't be able to squat on one leg. Lying on the ground and waving your legs in the air doesn't transfer to the bike. That might annoy the physio's and guru's who make money out of Swiss balls and all that stuff, but I tried it for three years in 20 different sports and it didn't make any difference to performance or injury rates. They get really good at balancing on a ball, but there's no Olympic event for that. It doesn't transfer to the sport. Fix their technical problems in the actual technique (soapbox time is now over).

9. A Gym session lasts about 2.5-3 hours for 6 or 7 exercises, a maximum of 33 sets including 12 warm-ups sets, so that's about one set every six minutes or more on average. We don't set maximum rests, just minimums. If they need longer to get their heads in gear, they take it. Ryan Bayley is the slowest trainer in the world. Lucky he's so bloody fast, they'll pay my bill to sit there and talk about muscle cars and heavy metal music. Reps are a maximum of 6 for strength, and 4 - 15 for power (less for high percentages - 60-70% max, more for low percentages - 20%, or BW for plyos) Total contraction time for a set (not counting hang time in the air) is around 6-8s max - phosphate energy system all the way. Minimum of 2 min rest, but that is never in danger. Only the phosphate energy system can deliver energy fast enough for maximal work and you've got about 8s max.

10. On the track they take about 3 hours for 3 or 4 efforts including half hour warm-up routine - same as pre-race warm-up. Warm-up, change gears, roll-up, effort, roll down 20-30min rest, roll-up, effort, etc. Lot's more rest. Rest usually consists of sitting on their arses, paying out on each other, drinking Coca Cola (sponsorship please - the Coke bill is killing us) and the occasional chocolate cake. This is especially good when there is a joint sprinter/enduro training session. (Enduros don't get any cake - they're too paranoid about body fat). In general prep phase, the sprinters ride to track and gym (15-20min easy each way) and in spec prep, they drive. Each track effort is no longer than about 15s and usually less than 10s. Again, mainly phosphate system.

11. The one thing we do that most coaches can't cop is this. If you don't make the target times or loads on the first effort or set, you warm down and go home. You aren't fresh enough to train at a level that will make you improve. If you do a PB, you warm down and go home. If you are on fire that much you can blow yourself to pieces in a couple of sets or efforts and it will take weeks to dig you out of the hole you put yourself in, so whatever it is, if you PB, you stop and come back next time. This philosophy takes everyone a while to accept, but it works. When we don't follow the rules, if we let someone pump out a series of PBs in one session, they are almost invariably wrecked for weeks afterwards and we never get close to quality training during that time. Sometimes, you can see it coming, but sometimes it just comes out of the blue. When it does, warm down, go home. Sometimes, at lower levels you can get away with it, but the better you get, the more capacity you have to exceed your normal limits, the more this becomes important. Enduros don't need to do this. Everything is submaximal.

12. In general prep, the sprinters might do 2 x 1hr easy aerobic/coffee rides per week and an easier recovery ride on days off (unless the're too fat, then they might do 2hrs and less chocolate cake). This year, we are doing a total of six aerobic development rides (over Christmas - fat time). In spec prep, they just do the recovery rides.

13. We generally always do track after gym. Gym in mornings (8:30am-11/12) track in the arvo (2:30/3pm-5:30/6pm). If the gym session is too hard, it will bugger them for track. As I said, for about half the year, we don't care. For the other half, I water down the gym so the track work is 100%. There is some short term potentiation from doing some maximal strength or power efforts but the research is not clear on time frames since everyone does something different. This is one thing we are looking at. If we do two maximal power ergo tests (6s with 4-5min recovery), the second one is always much better. The same has been shown with some contrast-loading studies on squats and plyos, etc., but an equal number of studies have shown no effect. The time courses and stimuli are always different though, so it's hard to compare. I think there's something in it so if you find something that works for you, go with it. The exception is start sessions. We never do standing starts after gym. If we do, they are always crap sessions.

14. Coming up to the major comp for the year (Worlds or Olympics), we slot in a speed endurance block. This involves the addition of some longer sustained efforts or sets of short efforts with low recovery once or twice per week, usually one on an ergo and one on the track. This increases the muscles ability to buffer hydrogen ions from the anaerobic glycolysis energy pathway that you have to rely on when the phosphates run out and increases the enzyme capacity of that pathway as well, so it can run at a higher level. Adaptation is relatively fast and 6-8wks will usually give a massive increase in this capacity.

15. Here's the logic.
Volume is a speed killer. It doesn't matter what you do, if you do a lot, it will make you slower. The protein in your muscles (myosin heavy chain isoforms for those who know their molecular biology) will change to a slower, more endurance friendly type if you do too much volume. This is individually variable, but two sessions every day of anything will make you slower as will lots of aerobic work. You might still be fast for an enduro, but in sprinter terms, you're still slow.

Going slow makes you slow. If you want to be able to go faster, then going at less than maximal speed generally won't do it. If it does, then you weren't operating at 100% before. That's OK. Most people can't switch everything on. You have to practice it. It takes years to reach your 100% level even without any actual physiological improvement. Most sprint events require sustained power output at cadences over 160rpm. If you don't practice this, you won't get good at it. Most people will spend all their bickies just getting up to 160rpm on a decent gear, so to train maximally at that level, you have to get up to 160rpm without using up your phosphate stores. That's where the motor bike comes in. Use the slipstream to get up to max speed or over and then spend your bickies. That way you work maximally at maximal speed. You have to train your nervous system to coordinate your muscular contractions at that speed.

Same in the gym. If all you do is slow, heavy. You get STRONG and SLOW. You need to do most of your work at race speeds using submaximal loads but at high speeds. If you can't do single-leg stuff, then Olympic pulling movements are your next best option, but unloaded plyos are more important for higher cadences. You don't need to be able to clean or snatch or jerk. The pull phase from the floor to full hip and knee extension is where the gains come from. What happens after that doesn't matter. You can throw the bar out of the window and the gains will be the same. I would only recommend this on your last rep as most gym owners get quite irate about their equipment being heaved out into the street, as do passing pedestrians. The overspeed work will come as you try to get away.

Use your maximum capacities at the maximum rate and in as specific a way as possible to transfer to the bike. I can outlift all our top riders in the gym and out-power them on the ergo, but I'm not in the race on the track. I can't put my power through the bike into the track. I'm just not technically as good as they are. Ryan Bayley may look like a monkey humping a tennis ball when he sprints but most of his power is getting onto the track.

...

Weight training for enduros - the same strategies apply but maximal strength and power are less critical. All endurance riding, even the bunch sprint at the end, is really submaximal. A little bit of gym regularly helps to maintain the structural integrity of the body, prevent imbalances and prepare you for crashes, but the real gains come on the road. Racing is the best training. All our best track enduros race on the road in Europe. They come together for camps to touch up their track skills, but all of that was learnt as juniors and in domestic track racing on the way up. For strength endurance on the bike, ride up hills in the saddle on bigger gears. That was the only strength work out team pursuit did for the last three years and they won everything there was to win with a bucket load of world records to boot. Incidentally, they are also the fastest starters.
Enthalpic is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-06, 09:27 PM
  #7  
nitropowered
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens, Ohio
Posts: 5,104

Bikes: Custom Custom Custom

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Tactics aside, Its really muscle composition. A higher density of fast twitch muscles will give you the explosive power. However, your endurance would not be as great. Thats why you typically see sprinters die on hills and aren't really that great on TTs.

But when you put tactics in play, you can have a mediocre sprinter out sprint a phenomenal sprinter if you play the cards right. I can beat everyone on my team in a sprint but if they gang up on me and lead out someone else, I can't really compete against a rider getting a lead out train. Also timing plays a huge role as well.
nitropowered is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-06, 02:31 AM
  #8  
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 11,739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
In the end, the physiological differences won't have as much of a dramatic effects as smarts and strategy. In the majority of races, the guy that crosses the finish line first, got there because he was using his head...

Like nitro said, the guy getting the lead-out's gonna have a significant advantage... and he could be the guy sitting on your wheel at the end of a race...
DannoXYZ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-06, 07:00 AM
  #9  
EventServices
Announcer
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,083

Bikes: Many

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Geez, and all this time I thought it was a flipped stem that helped me sprint.
EventServices is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-06, 10:01 AM
  #10  
furiousferret
Senior Member
 
furiousferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 5,552
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 528 Post(s)
That article on Australian training was really interesting, amazing techniques. By average, they have the best sprinters in the world.
furiousferret is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-06, 02:02 PM
  #11  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,022

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Cdale Slice

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Some things from the Aussie article that are easy to apply, and work.

1. Strength Train for Strength, that means pushin some heavy weight at some point in time, not the low weight high rep stuff most cyclist do.
2. Motor Pace, having somthing fast to draft and "overspeed" you or pull you up to speed for a workout can give you dramatic improvement.
Voodoo76 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-06, 03:32 PM
  #12  
EventServices
Announcer
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,083

Bikes: Many

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Ah yes, definitely!

Get used to coming around something that's moving 35mph, and you'll find that a 30mph sprint is child's play.
EventServices is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-06, 12:01 AM
  #13  
ed073
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 6,411

Bikes: Scapin EOS7 sloping, 10v Record, Ksyriums

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Enthalpic
Genetics, a killer instinct and this coach.

Training info straight from the Strength and Conditioning Coach for the Australian National Sprint Cycling Team:.

I think the OP was referring to road sprinting.

Last edited by ed073; 03-23-06 at 12:23 AM.
ed073 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-06, 07:18 AM
  #14  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,022

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Cdale Slice

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Agree, but some of the article still applies. To be a good sprinter you need to have a little speed. Most road riders do a poor job developing that.
Voodoo76 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-06, 08:38 AM
  #15  
feltdude
dog = interval
 
feltdude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sanford, NC
Posts: 629

Bikes: 2005 Fuji Professional

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I weight train 3-4 days a week in addition to riding.
feltdude is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-23-06, 09:01 AM
  #16  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,022

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Cdale Slice

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Originally Posted by feltdude
I weight train 3-4 days a week in addition to riding.
IMO you still need some form of forced "Overspeed" work to turn this strength into speed on a Bike. Motorpace is the most efficient means. Power is only half the equation.
Voodoo76 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-06, 01:11 AM
  #17  
Snicklefritz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Snicklefritz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Voodoo76
IMO you still need some form of forced "Overspeed" work to turn this strength into speed on a Bike. Motorpace is the most efficient means. Power is only half the equation.
What does "overspeed" work mean? I thought that power output would equate to speed, so I'm curious what you meant by this other thing. What exactly does motorpacing do that helps people get faster? could you achieve the same thing by just trying to maintain a certain speed for a certain time or is there something else to it?
Snicklefritz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-06, 03:16 AM
  #18  
thunder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
means there is no way you could sprint at 65 kmph even on a flat smmoth tarmac wth a tailwind. Because of the power you expend getting up to 55 before you launch yourself out of the saddle.

But if a moped or scooter, derney, mini car, van, truck, or bus takes you up to 55 in their slipstrem you don't expend your power, then if you stay behind it up to 65/70 spirinting all the way, that builds the speed component in your muscle. A speed you would never have been able to reach without the motorpace. You can stay behind in the slipstream then or you can jump out at 60/65/70 and face the wind.

This is prototypical sprinting training, Mcewen, Cipo, PEtachhi get their trainer on a scoort or a small van/car to bring them up to 65, and then they try to pass. To them this is not overspeed. Overspeed would be the scooter going up to 80 and them trailing in their slipstream.

You might question the relevance overspeed has, but it will add to your top end by eaching your muscles to perform at that speed, so the increased power you develop will be perfectly translated to speed.

Athletics running sprinters might use rubber bands to pull them from a standing start to teach overspeed from an explosive start.
thunder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-06, 07:26 AM
  #19  
jbhowat
@ Checkmate Cycling
 
jbhowat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 1,622

Bikes: CAAD 8 - Ultegra

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Voodoo76
IMO you still need some form of forced "Overspeed" work to turn this strength into speed on a Bike. Motorpace is the most efficient means. Power is only half the equation.

Usually we say Power is the whole equation. As power in cycling is general thought of as Force and Speed combined. You need both to b powerful. Force being weight training and speed being motorpacing, etc.
jbhowat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-06, 07:32 AM
  #20  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,022

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Cdale Slice

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
This is spot on, I dont know all the physiology but I have never met a Track Sprinter (or truly fast road sprinter) who did not train behind a Motor. One component is the difference between Work (Force over distance) and Power (Work/time). Overspeed helps you develop Power, ability to apply Force to the pedals quickly. thunder is correct in that it's hard to train this on your own due to the energy required to get up to speed.

Another example of overspeed type training in the running world was the great Russian 100m man Valerie Borzov. Part of his training regimin involved sprints on a slight decline, training him to "turn over" faster. The decline was such that he could do repeats at slightly faster than his target 100m time. It was pretty revolutionary stuff at the time.
Voodoo76 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-06, 10:09 AM
  #21  
Snicklefritz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Snicklefritz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Voodoo76
This is spot on, I dont know all the physiology but I have never met a Track Sprinter (or truly fast road sprinter) who did not train behind a Motor. One component is the difference between Work (Force over distance) and Power (Work/time). Overspeed helps you develop Power, ability to apply Force to the pedals quickly. thunder is correct in that it's hard to train this on your own due to the energy required to get up to speed.

Another example of overspeed type training in the running world was the great Russian 100m man Valerie Borzov. Part of his training regimin involved sprints on a slight decline, training him to "turn over" faster. The decline was such that he could do repeats at slightly faster than his target 100m time. It was pretty revolutionary stuff at the time.
Ok. this makes sense. thanks for the details. If I can get one of my friends to do this, how would we go about the motorpace? I'm wondering specifically from where to start ramping up speed and how fast I should tell them to do and also at what point I should go out into the wind to sprint. It my be tricky to find roads to do this on. So if I can't do motorpacing, then are there any tricks that I could do on a bike to try to get a similar effect?
Snicklefritz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-06, 10:14 AM
  #22  
thunder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 286
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
Ok. this makes sense. thanks for the details. If I can get one of my friends to do this, how would we go about the motorpace? I'm wondering specifically from where to start ramping up speed and how fast I should tell them to do and also at what point I should go out into the wind to sprint. It my be tricky to find roads to do this on. So if I can't do motorpacing, then are there any tricks that I could do on a bike to try to get a similar effect?
Sprint after a downhill. get up to seventy on the downhill and when you hit the flat jump out of the saddle and sprint for 8 seconds. Repeat in 5 minutes.

Build up to 3 repeats for 4 efforts total. No need to motorpace. Also, you can find a less steep hill, get up to 60 and then sprint on the downhill. Sprinting on the downhill, you need less slope ofcourse.
thunder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-06, 10:55 AM
  #23  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,022

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Cdale Slice

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
Ok. this makes sense. thanks for the details. If I can get one of my friends to do this, how would we go about the motorpace? I'm wondering specifically from where to start ramping up speed and how fast I should tell them to do and also at what point I should go out into the wind to sprint. It my be tricky to find roads to do this on. So if I can't do motorpacing, then are there any tricks that I could do on a bike to try to get a similar effect?

On the Track this was simpler. Typically we would do a "Normal" flying 200 behind the motor, speed above whatever your target was (for me 40 to 42 was about right, was trying to get under mid 11's). A lap at 20, a lap at 30, top of the track and dive to the 200m mark. The guy on the motor has to have a good feel for acceleration, I found that a smaller bike (we used an old 125 Honda) worked well as you could almost out jump it.

Two workouts I've used on the road. Motor does an easy acceleration from 20mph or so up to 35 to 40, the speed depends on where you are at as a rider, motor beeps horn you pull around & get your wheel ahead of the motors. Get back behind and 20 or so, rest and repeat. Second is similar up to the sprint speed, motor continues to accelerate to higher than your target, holds for 200 to 400m, and you hang on as long as you can.

I played around with using a downhill, another rider, ect. But just could never get the same effect.
Voodoo76 is online now  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service