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Riis - Poor loser? (spoiler-ish)

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Riis - Poor loser? (spoiler-ish)

Old 05-19-06, 03:01 PM
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Riis - Poor loser? (spoiler-ish)

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...ay06/may19news


"Ivan did his best ever time trial. He did really brilliant, and I'm very proud of what he's accomplished in this discipline. Ullrich was in a league of his own and deserves great respect, even though the time difference would've turned out entirely different had he not had the advantage of the tailwind earlier in the day. But we have every reason to be satisfied with our result today. We increased the gap to our competitors, and we now enter the final and toughest part of the race with a solid margin." -Riis


I haven't raced for as long as most, but that sounds like he's making excuses. I really don't care what the wind was/was not doing, when you say something along the lines of "we would have won if..." that's lame.

LAME I SAY.
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Old 05-19-06, 03:03 PM
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Riis has the cheeks of a small boy, why not the attitude to match?

I find the whole antagonism between Riis and Der Kaiser to actualy reflect favorably on Jan. His relaxed approach to training is annoying, his relaxed approach to Riis's insults is professional.
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Old 05-19-06, 03:10 PM
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A different view from Liquigas rider Dario Cioni in an interview at Pezcyclingnews

PEZ - “It seemed like the wind changed during the race?”
Dario - “It did, when I spoke to riders who had gone off before me they said it was a tail wind out and a head wind back, but at the end it was the other way.I don’t think Ulrich benefited, maybe Wauters had the best advantage from this.”
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Old 05-19-06, 03:15 PM
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Mr. Sixty Percent.

When he won the Amstel Gold Race in 1997, he was quick to point out that a reigning Tour champion winning a World Cup/Classic was the stuff of legends. His time at the top of the sport was, presumably, cut short by an effective test for EPO.
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Old 05-19-06, 03:20 PM
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You guys seem to miss the part where Riis says Jan was in a league of his own....sounds like quite a compliment to me.

Say what you want about Riis but he's a great DS. He's turned CSC into the best team in the world. Jan is no doubt a great rider, one of the top GT riders on the planet, but CSC is a better disciplined and lead team and that will be the big difference in July.
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Old 05-19-06, 03:24 PM
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Its likely that Riis wouldn't have won his TdF without Jan Ullrich at his side, and its also even more likely that Ullrich could have beat him if he were allowed to in 96.
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Old 05-19-06, 03:24 PM
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I love most aspects of racing, but I am really sick and tired of all the whining that goes on after each damn time trial about who had what tailwind and who didn't. Gosh, Basso must have had a tailwind on stage 8 to propel him up the mountain like that!

Ulrich won because he is being able to crush the souls of the weak, the wind or no wind.
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Old 05-19-06, 04:21 PM
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It's a page out the Armstrong manual. All the yappin is just Psy-ops.
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Old 05-19-06, 04:30 PM
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Riis has always been a baby in my eyes. He continues to make excuses for a truly talented team, just like at the beginning of the year making excuses about the lack of early results saying that they would come later in the year in the Grand Tours. Hell your team won Roubaix - be happy - Basso is not the only one on this team!
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Old 05-19-06, 05:14 PM
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I don't see how those comments are in poor sport at all.
Why does Riis have to make excuses?? He has the top team in the world, with most riders developed by him.
 
Old 05-19-06, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Moochers_Dad
Ulrich won because he is being able to crush the souls of the weak, the wind or no wind.
we must be watching a different Giro-he's mid-pack where it counts, on the climbs.
 
Old 05-19-06, 05:24 PM
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He's also not trying. He's training. Its a simple as that. We won't know how Ullrich stacks up to Basso until the TdF, however it is interesting to note that when Ullrich did go all-out for half of the TT he beat Basso by 27 seconds.
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Old 05-19-06, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Sapper89
Riis has always been a baby in my eyes. He continues to make excuses for a truly talented team, just like at the beginning of the year making excuses about the lack of early results saying that they would come later in the year in the Grand Tours. Hell your team won Roubaix - be happy - Basso is not the only one on this team!
*Sigh*

I recently interviewed one of the mainstays on CSC. He was ready to quit the sport when he joined the team, and went from that to having his best season ever. The guys on the team love being there. They've been extremely successful on one of the smaller budgets in the Pro Tour. Riis funded a lot of the early years out of his pocket. And he said they were focusing on the Grand Tours and...

Who's in pink?

Guy's one of the best if not the best DS out there. And very, very bright. He wouldn't be there if he was a whiney baby like you all think. Read the subtext of what he's saying:

Re Classics: "You think we're having a bad year. We're not. We have a plan that you're not bright enough to understand. Last year we needed wins right away because we had sponsorship issues. Now we're going for the big enchilada "

Re Jan and the TT: "My guy is right there with Ulrich. I got his back when all you press folks want to put doubt in him about what this means for the tour".

If I'm Basso I go away smiling.

View this stuff with a broader context.
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Old 05-19-06, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
View this stuff with a broader context.

You do realize who your talking to....right?

Now that LA has departed this board sure has become a huge love fest Ulrich and big hate fest for Basso and CSC. Jan is great rider, Basso is becoming a great rider and may just well write some history for himself this year. Basso is also one of the most easy going, humble guys in the peloton. Before Riis and CSC Basso, Jullich, even Voigt were either not well known or ready to quit or have their teams quit on them. Riis has made this team into a TEAM something that truely only one other team over the last few years could boast (Disco/Postal). Those of you who think that Riis isn't for real should watch Overcoming, this gives some great insight to the man and the team as a whole. Jan will be there in July ready to race but believe me so will Ivan and Jan will have just as tough a time with him as he did with Lance. That will be in no small part because of Riis and the rest of CSC.
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Old 05-19-06, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DocRay
I don't see how those comments are in poor sport at all.
Why does Riis have to make excuses?? He has the top team in the world, with most riders developed by him.
Ditto...Seemed like a well rounded thought out comment to me. Seems to be much ado about nothing.
And sorry........but anyone who thinks that comments regarding head winds during a TT is whining....sheeeesh. I mean head winds have defeated more riders than other riders. I remember the story of Marino during RAAM. While riding through the plains states he suddenly turned around and started going in the opposite direction...during the race! When the support van caught him, they started yelling...What are you doing? you're going the wrong direction. Marino responded " I've been riding into the wind for 2 days, and I'm not doing it any more!

Winds can change dramatically over the 2-4 hrs. of a TT and can be THE determining factor of the results.
I would never consider the results of a TT significant without understanding weather conditions and comparable starting times.
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Old 05-19-06, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jbhowat
Its likely that Riis wouldn't have won his TdF without Jan Ullrich at his side, and its also even more likely that Ullrich could have beat him if he were allowed to in 96.
Nonsense. Where did you dig this little nugget out from?

Riis was in front of Ullrich on every mountain stage and had an off day in the last TT.
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Old 05-19-06, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Moochers_Dad
Ulrich won because he is being able to crush the souls of the weak, the wind or no wind.
That Riis sure is given to hyperbole, isn't he. You're not of German descent by any chance, are you?
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Old 05-19-06, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
That Riis sure is given to hyperbole, isn't he. You're not of German descent by any chance, are you?
Walter, with all respect, you can't hold Riis chamois
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Old 05-19-06, 09:14 PM
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Riis is an amazing DS, right up there with Brujneel... maybe even better. However looking back on Riis' racing history he seems to have a bit of a temper, or impatient attitude when it comes to problems (i.e the infamous bike toss in the 1997 TDF.....

This being said after Riis' chances of winning the 97 tour faded, he helped Ulrich out a lot by waiting for him at the mountain peaks to help guide him down the descents. He later asked Ulrich to join CSC but Ulrich turned him down due to money issuses.

Im sure this prolly didn't sit well with Riis at the time, but I hope he would be over that now. All that being said I wish Ulrich would have went with CSC.... he could have won a lot more Tours had it been for Riis' leadership and discipline.
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Old 05-20-06, 04:32 AM
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Sounds kind of silly how some of you seem to be taking sides. Riis' comment about the wind does sound a bit silly in hindsight, but what's the big deal? You hear stuff like that from coaches and managers in soccer, baseball, football, hockey - you name the sport - all the time. Ullrich and Basso are two of the top riders in our era. Jan's days near the top may now be numbered, and who knows what Ivan can achieve? We should all be appreciative (as I think we nearly all are) that we get to witness them crossing swords this year. Obviously, Ivan is riding the Giro to win, and Jan is not. Hopefully both (and the other contenders as well) will be in top form come the TDF. They both even seem like very likeable fellows as well. Heck, I'd almost be willing to sell my soul to be able to ride like either of these guys for even one day.

Comparing Bruyneel to Riis - they both have been very successful as DS's. Obviously, I don't know either of them personally, but I think I'd respond better to Johann's style. Obviously, Bjarne is doing something right as well.

You can continue debate all you like. Me? I'll just watch and appreciate.
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Old 05-20-06, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DocRay
we must be watching a different Giro-he's mid-pack where it counts, on the climbs.
yeah, agree...I guess we'll be treated to Jan crushing souls next week when the real race starts...
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Old 05-20-06, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
Comparing Bruyneel to Riis - they both have been very successful as DS's. Obviously, I don't know either of them personally, but I think I'd respond better to Johann's style. Obviously, Bjarne is doing something right as well.

You can continue debate all you like. Me? I'll just watch and appreciate.
Remember that Bruyneel had Armstrong to do the "dirty work" and Johann could focus on other things...Riis does everything and does not have the strong "fight" personality within his rider group that Armstrong brought to the team...he has different riders, equally capable, but totally different personalities. Riis surrounds himself with riders he can "manage"...I doubt that Lance and Riis would have made a good combination. Riis has picked the riders he wants based on ability and personality.

Riis has total control. He micromanages everything (had a boss like that you could not stand?) Bruyneel was in charge on the race course, but Lance was the leader. Basso's an absolutely outstanding rider (I still think his greatest work was with Fassa with no support) and has hugely improved in the TT, but he's not "rah rah" rallying the troops on the race course...that's Riis' job. Lance would will his team on to greater things. Lance was in people's faces. So they had to find riders that would respond to that. And some thought they could, but could not and left.

This is why it's so important to know not only physical talent, but personality, too...this is why hugely talented teams like T-Mobile underachieve.

Remember T-Mobile running down their own teammate, Vino, who was on a break in the TdF? Maybe he was told not to go...maybe the other riders did not like him...who knows? But strong leadership (like Bruyneel/Armstrong or Riis) prevents this from happening.

Leaders only lead when they have the permission of the followers.

Watch "Overcoming"...beyond the bike racing stuff. Look at how this team works and does not work. Watch the scene after the TT on d'Huez and the conversation that Riis has with Basso. Riis has to find exactly the right type of riders that will respond to his style. Can you imagine Bruyneel having that same conversation with Lance after his TT debacle during his fifth win?

Bruyneel/Armstrong did the same thing. Case in point...look at the difference between Hincapie and Landis.

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Old 05-20-06, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
*Sigh*

I recently interviewed one of the mainstays on CSC. He was ready to quit the sport when he joined the team, and went from that to having his best season ever. The guys on the team love being there. They've been extremely successful on one of the smaller budgets in the Pro Tour. Riis funded a lot of the early years out of his pocket. And he said they were focusing on the Grand Tours and...

Who's in pink?

Guy's one of the best if not the best DS out there. And very, very bright. He wouldn't be there if he was a whiney baby like you all think. Read the subtext of what he's saying:

Re Classics: "You think we're having a bad year. We're not. We have a plan that you're not bright enough to understand. Last year we needed wins right away because we had sponsorship issues. Now we're going for the big enchilada "

Re Jan and the TT: "My guy is right there with Ulrich. I got his back when all you press folks want to put doubt in him about what this means for the tour".

If I'm Basso I go away smiling.

View this stuff with a broader context.
Great post. Spot on.

Bottom line...Riis put this team together started with his own money, sought out the sponsors, attracted a bike manufacturer that would build the bike Riis wanted, surrounded himself with people and riders that would jump when he said so...

People may not like it, but frankly, it works for him. It's not "60 minutes plus two laps" racing...Riis draws the attention and the controversy so his riders can focus on riding.

BTW...it's working.

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Old 05-20-06, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Cypress
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...ay06/may19news


"Ivan did his best ever time trial. He did really brilliant, and I'm very proud of what he's accomplished in this discipline. Ullrich was in a league of his own and deserves great respect, even though the time difference would've turned out entirely different had he not had the advantage of the tailwind earlier in the day. But we have every reason to be satisfied with our result today. We increased the gap to our competitors, and we now enter the final and toughest part of the race with a solid margin." -Riis


I haven't raced for as long as most, but that sounds like he's making excuses. I really don't care what the wind was/was not doing, when you say something along the lines of "we would have won if..." that's lame.

LAME I SAY.
You do understand what he was talking about, right?

I didn't think so...

No flame, but his response was directed toward writers trying to make some sense out of the differential between Basso and Ullrich in about an hour of racing. And trying to extrapolate that into a race that's a month and a half away.

What a hoot...

He says this on purpose. For fun.
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Old 05-20-06, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Watch "Overcoming"...beyond the bike racing stuff. Look at how this team works and does not work. Watch the scene after the TT on d'Huez and the conversation that Riis has with Basso. Riis has to find exactly the right type of riders that will respond to his style. Can you imagine Bruyneel having that same conversation with Lance after his TT debacle during his fifth win?
Riis also takes personal and financial responsibility when things go wrong.
Bruyneel did not run Postal, Armstrong did. Bruyneel has yet to prove himself, anyone can look good with Armstrong.

Frankly, the only people making constant (~6years) excuses are Ullrich fans. They make more excuses than Ullrich, who's acting more like he loves his large salary over cycling. I think it's valid to criticize someone in his position and with his resources, he's pulled apart T-mobile. Vinokourov figured that out last year.
 

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