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Stage 19- Giro results- *SPOILER*

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Stage 19- Giro results- *SPOILER*

Old 05-26-06, 07:20 PM
  #26  
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To all of those that say it isn't harder to pull someone up a climb in a race, you've never done it.
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Old 05-26-06, 08:15 PM
  #27  
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Yes- NO SPOILERS IN THE TITLE. From now on, if there are, I will just delete the entire thread and people can start from scratch. This will be enforced from now on, especially for the other bigger races.

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Old 05-26-06, 08:25 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Cypress
To all of those that say it isn't harder to pull someone up a climb in a race, you've never done it.
Cypress, we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I have pulled many a rider (and dropped many more). There is definitely a mental upset that arises because I just wish they would either go away or help. But the fact remains (rooted in physics) that it is no harder to lead someone up a climb then to go solo. If you want to show me a paper, study or book somewhere that states otherwise I would welcome it.
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Old 05-26-06, 08:30 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Ceya
It seems the German marauder - who rode more than 150km in the break and then followed Garate up the final climb on San Pellegrino - has manners to go along with his attacking temperament

"I always like to win, but if I don't work, I don't win. If I win, it's because I am good and I worked for it," Voigt told VeloNews. "To win like this, it wouldn't be a win. That's just not me. I cannot win like that."

S/F,
CEYA!
Voigt is a rare, true sportsman in cycling, which is why he's my favorite rider.
 
Old 05-26-06, 08:44 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Cypress
Look at it this way - Sit on a guy up the mountain, let him do all of the work, OR - Attack him and help HIM get a better time after racing up the hill. Pulling someone up a hill is tougher than being by yourself.

Winning that stage was probably the highlight of that guy's season and possibly his entire career.
Ummm, the red and yellow outfit Garate is wearing..?, that is the National Road Champion of Spain kit. Some of the riders he beat in that race include the current #2 on GC in the Giro and riders like Valverde, Etxeberria, on and on. He has also won a stage in another GT, the Tour of Spain, and a stage in the Tour of Switzerland.

For whatever reason Voight did not contest the finish, he did commit a minor faux pax, the same one LA committed with Pantani on Stage 12 of the 2000 TDF when he telegraphed his gifting of the stage to Pantani. Telegraphing the gift exposes it to the media and fans, and while it does not devalue the rider's efforts, it devalues the finish. LA got a suitable dressing down from Marco. Juan was gracious.
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Old 05-26-06, 09:59 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell
Cypress, we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I have pulled many a rider (and dropped many more). There is definitely a mental upset that arises because I just wish they would either go away or help. But the fact remains (rooted in physics) that it is no harder to lead someone up a climb then to go solo. If you want to show me a paper, study or book somewhere that states otherwise I would welcome it.
i agree.
from personal experience i don't know, but from my fluid dynamics experience i can't think of a way that being talied up a hill would make it harder. it should only make it easier, just as it's easier being tailed in the flats.
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Old 05-26-06, 11:54 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Ceya
I can see why that advice was given. Most of them attack and get burned out by lap 2. Learn the feel of the pack and learn to get comfortable.

If you are a Cat3 then it does not apply but for a new 5, I say yes for the first 2 races. Again most may not fit the profile and are hard chargers.

I learned the hard way as a new Cat 4 but later promoted to 3 in 3 weeks and WOW fast.This was along time ago.

S/F,
CEYA!
I dunno. Maybe it's just me but it seems like you learn more about yourself actually trying than wheelsucking, which for some people becomes a lifelong habit. Especially so in the 5's where you're just counting starts and get nothing for winning, other than some ego fodder.

There's simply nothing in cycling that's better than going out or bridging to that break and actually crossing the finish line in front. Or even second in the group.

Hey, race negative all you want. Wheelsuck. Attack as soon as the guy that's been pulling the field around goes for his water bottle. Whatever. Just don't expect me to concur when folks laud Hincapie or any other wheelsucker for cheesy, classless wins. Standing on the podium when your standing on a lot of work, none of it yours, is standing small.

Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
For whatever reason Voight did not contest the finish, he did commit a minor faux pax, the same one LA committed with Pantani on Stage 12 of the 2000 TDF when he telegraphed his gifting of the stage to Pantani. LA got a suitable dressing down from Marco. Juan was gracious.
Lance didn't telegraph a thing, he was dead Elvis'ng and played it off later that he "gifted" the stage to Marco, which is when Marco fired back. It was typical Lance...like his saying Ulrich didn't wait, like attacking the break Simoni was in, like racing negatively against Landis.

It was once said of Indurain that he didn't need a team, the whole peleton was would work for him. If you don't understand the whys and hows and ramifications of that, it's a pity.

Jens is the man, and deserves every single ounce of respect plus more. Some people don't get pure class.

Last edited by Vinokurtov; 05-27-06 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 05-27-06, 04:13 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell
From a physics perspective, this is wrong. The front rider either gets a mild benefit from the guy behind him (over about 12 Mph) or he gets no benefit. At no point is it harder than solo however (unless you are thinking of the mental "why the H*ll won't this guy contribute?" aspect)
this type of argument is pointless and sounds bookwormish. Go out and race. Setting tempo on a climb takes alot more energy than following. You also have the advantage of sizing up the rider for an attack.

If you don't have a sprint at the end, you attack earlier in the climb to drop the rest. Either way, in the end, sportsmanship is taking equal work setting tempo until you lay down your attacks.
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Old 05-27-06, 05:41 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Ceya
It seems the German marauder - who rode more than 150km in the break and then followed Garate up the final climb on San Pellegrino - has manners to go along with his attacking temperament

"I always like to win, but if I don't work, I don't win. If I win, it's because I am good and I worked for it," Voigt told VeloNews. "To win like this, it wouldn't be a win. That's just not me. I cannot win like that."
thank you..it's called sportsmanship, something so badly lacking in today's society...

Voigt's my new favorite rider.

Bravo, Jens!!

It also helped Garate go from 15th to 8th...my guess is that a top 10 for Garate could be a bonus.
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Old 05-27-06, 05:47 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
Jens is the man, and deserves every single ounce of respect plus more. Some people don't get pure class.
Well said...
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Old 05-27-06, 05:57 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by RacerX
Garate has every right to be happy to win. He did the hard work and it does leave a bad taste when someone is towed to the finish and then comes around at the end.
I think Jens does something here that makes you think of the honor of the sport and not just crossing the line first.

It's one of the times where you forget about the sponsors, drugs, gossip and just think of these great atheletes racing with dignity.

With this move, Jens and Garate both won.
I think many could learn from your comments.

Nicely stated.
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Old 05-27-06, 06:00 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Cypress
Winning that stage was probably the highlight of that guy's season and possibly his entire career.
New to the sport, I see...

Welcome and enjoy.

I'd suggest checking out the websites of several of the Pro Tour teams...there are bios on riders like Garate, who is the champion of Spain.
Pretty good riders there...he beat all of them.

Keep watching as the sport can always use more fans.

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Old 05-27-06, 06:41 AM
  #38  
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First Jens is the MAN. After watching Overcoming I was blown away by him. After all this time he still has the enthusiasm for cycling that you'd only expect from a child. Also the movie really showed who close CSC is as a team. Each guy was really ready to turn himself inside out for their team leader.

Second as for pulling up a hill, for me it's a mental thing. I feel pulling anywhere, hills or flat's more mentally taxing than physically taxing.
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Old 05-27-06, 08:07 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
Lance didn't telegraph a thing, he was dead Elvis'ng and played it off later that he "gifted" the stage to Marco, which is when Marco fired back.
Well, Lance did wave Pantani by him...if that wasn't telling him to take the win, what was it now, dead Elvs'ng?

At least Pantani understood what Lance was doing.

---------------------------------------------------------

For all the Jens fans, I'm sure this will ruffle your sensitive feathers, but someone who really understands bike racing would acknowledge that we, the fans, have no idea why Jens did what he did, we only know what he told the media. Fact is, he was on his radio for a few kilos before the finish with Bjarney talking about something. That was obvious on the live feeds. Bjarney can say he was persuading Jens to take the win, but Bjarne has been known to blow more than a little smoke in the past. For all anyone here knows, a deal may have been made with Quick Step for future considerations if Jens didn't contest the finish.

And Jens patting Juan on the back and pushing him ahead was tantamount to Jens telling everyone who the real winner was, him. It should have been spoken between the two and left at that.

Last edited by waltergodefroot; 05-27-06 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 05-27-06, 12:44 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot

---------------------------------------------------------

For all the Jens fans, I'm sure this will ruffle your sensitive feathers, but someone who really understands bike racing would acknowledge that we, the fans, have no idea why Jens did what he did, we only know what he told the media.
You, the race fan, who believes to really understand bike racing, seems to be at odds with the fellow racers I've spoken to about this, some of whom have ridden in the professional ranks and some of whom are former national champions, who agree that the move was pure class and fully believe, based on personal knowledge of Voigt, that he is telling the truth.

Pity they don't have your insight and depth of knowledge.
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Old 05-27-06, 12:53 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
...they don't have your insight and depth of knowledge.
Couldn't agree more.
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Old 05-27-06, 01:35 PM
  #42  
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this type of argument is pointless and sounds bookwormish. Go out and race. Setting tempo on a climb takes alot more energy than following. You also have the advantage of sizing up the rider for an attack.
Never denied that. If people would read a comment and understand the argument prior to responding, this would not keep coming up. Nobody claimed it is easier to lead than to be paced. The statement being argued was that it takes more energy (it is harder) to lead someone up a climb than it is to go solo up the same climb. Not true, end of story.
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Old 05-27-06, 10:34 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell
Never denied that. If people would read a comment and understand the argument prior to responding, this would not keep coming up. Nobody claimed it is easier to lead than to be paced. The statement being argued was that it takes more energy (it is harder) to lead someone up a climb than it is to go solo up the same climb. Not true, end of story.

Look at the thread you are in. This is regarding Jens and Garate up the final climb. Just man up and say you stand corrected instead of trying for revisionist history- an exercise in futility since everyone can just read the thread.
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