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Simoni Accusation? Possible Spoiler.

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Simoni Accusation? Possible Spoiler.

Old 05-29-06, 08:45 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
Yes the patterns are quite obvious. Cunego beats him fair and square at the Giro in 04 and he spends the next year whining about how he is a backstabber, I believe he used the term bastard at one point. Cunego was clearly in better form and dropped him easily. Now he gets beat handily by Basso in virtually every stage and then accuses the man of doping, which is laughable considering he's had his run in's with doping himself. He now has to resort to bribery charges! Why not say this from the the beginning instead of the please don't drop me accusation? It's certainly is more inflammatory. The pattern with Simoni has shown that since he won his last Giro he's been a less than gracious loser.
Simoni has been a whiner and a sore loser, no doubt. But he is not the only one who is wondering how Basso, who has never before won a GT, could dominate every stage in the toughest Giro of recent times without a bad day or faltering for a moment. Simoni is just the only one who is willing to say it in public.
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Old 05-29-06, 08:51 AM
  #27  
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A sad ending to what could have been a classic race. The Giro has always been a "political" sort of race. An Italian rider has won ten years in a row, because teams are "educated" that they should designate an Italian as their team leader for the Giro, even if their strongest rider is an American, or is French, or Spanish. And, the Italian who finishes second seems to always have excuses. What ever happened to "he won...I lost..."....but whining is the Italian way.
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Old 05-29-06, 09:05 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
[shaking head sadly]Wow, the mob is out in force. This just reinforces how easily people are controlled and manipulated by politicians. Pretty boy Basso, whom no one here knows anything about other than what they read in the media, flashes a photo of his infant child and he is a saint. How many jerseys will he sell off that?[/shaking head sadly]

Simoni was able to confirm that while at the office of Dr. Bruno Grosselli of Torbole sul Garda for a filling on 24 April, an local anesthetic containing two percent carbocaine with adrenaline was administered to him, which was further corroborated by the medical certificate furnished by Simoni's dentist to the UCI and Giro race organization.
While it's clear that you are biased against Basso, you've provided an excellent example of Simoni's historical lies.
This dentist's letter was one explanation for the coke in his system, the explanation he gave, on film, in the Giro documentary, The Quest, is that his aunt put the cocaine in some pasteries she made for him. I find this explanation highly unlikely.

Simoni has done these personal attacks before, when he lost to Cunego.

The idea that Basso, 5km away from the Giro win, and all the prize money and endorsement monies to come, would need to sell the victory to another rider is just not plausible. What IS plausible is that Simoni, riding in his home region, would expect that Basso let him win the stage under some antique italian code of honor, but Basso works for Riis, not Simoni.

While I hate to admit it, being italian, italian sport has a long history of poor losers and rumor mongering due to the out-of-control press.
 
Old 05-29-06, 09:14 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
While it's clear that you are biased against Basso, you've provided an excellent example of Simoni's historical lies.
This dentist's letter was one explanation for the coke in his system, the explanation he gave, on film, in the Giro documentary, The Quest, is that his aunt put the cocaine in some pasteries she made for him. I find this explanation highly unlikely.
Another explanation is that he snorted cocaine.

I actually have very good mail that nose candy was an issue within certain red outfitted, aluminium bike riding Italian teams at that time, so there!
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Old 05-29-06, 09:14 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Simoni has been a whiner and a sore loser, no doubt. But he is not the only one who is wondering how Basso, who has never before won a GT, could dominate every stage in the toughest Giro of recent times without a bad day or faltering for a moment. Simoni is just the only one who is willing to say it in public.
This is not a reasonable comment. Basso has finished just behind Armstrong in two TDFs, and he was set to win last year's Giro except for sickness. He is one of the few riders in the last years to beat Armstrong and has been considered to be the top 3-4 GT racers in the world. Are you trying to tell us that Basso bribed his way to every Giro stage win, and even after he mathematically won the the Giro overall??

Think.

And since Simoni was repeatedly dropped in the earlier mountain stages, can we now conclude that Simoni, Cunego, Salvodelli, Ullrich, Guiterrez ALL accepted bribes??

Gentleman, this is a prime application of the Chewbacca defence, this makes no sense...


Last edited by DocRay; 05-29-06 at 09:21 AM.
 
Old 05-29-06, 09:22 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
While it's clear that you are biased against Basso,.
I do not care about either Simoni ar Basso. I am not a fan of either. I am simply trying to be objective. YOU are the one with the Basso BS all over yourself. And we are to consider your POV objective? Get over yourself.

Originally Posted by DocRay
...you've provided an excellent example of Simoni's historical lies.
This dentist's letter was one explanation for the coke in his system, the explanation he gave, on film, in the Giro documentary, The Quest, is that his aunt put the cocaine in some pasteries she made for him. I find this explanation highly unlikely. .
I have not seen this movie, so I cannot address that.

Originally Posted by DocRay
...The idea that Basso, 5km away from the Giro win, and all the prize money and endorsement monies to come, would need to sell the victory to another rider is just not plausible,..., italian sport has a long history of poor losers and rumor mongering due to the out-of-control press.
Basso rides for a team and a DS. They all share in the moneies won at the Giro. Think about it.

Then again, I just see you sitting there twitching uncontrollably, repeating over and ove again, "no, No, NO, NO, not Ivan, he's my boy, WWIBD?, hE WOULDN'T DO THIS TO ME!"

Bye now.
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Old 05-29-06, 09:29 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Basso rides for a team and a DS. They all share in the moneies won at the Giro. Think about it.
I thought about it, your posts imply that the entire Giro D'Italia is fixed. You have no idea what you're talking about and are just trolling.
 
Old 05-29-06, 09:32 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot

Then again, I just see you sitting there twitching uncontrollably, repeating over and ove again, "no, No, NO, NO, not Ivan, he's my boy, WWIBD?, hE WOULDN'T DO THIS TO ME!"

Bye now.
Sorry, I didn't realize your age, while it's great that 13 year olds contribute to the forum, they have also the opportunity to learn.
 
Old 05-29-06, 09:34 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
I thought about it, your posts imply that the entire Giro D'Italia is fixed. You have no idea what you're talking about and are just trolling.
Wow, that was deep thought.

A minute ago I was biased against Basso; now I'm just trolling. Keep us posted when you settle on another branch to support your shaky fanaticism.
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Old 05-29-06, 09:34 AM
  #35  
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I'm willing to give Simoni benefit of the doubt. To do otherwise is ludicrous.
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Old 05-29-06, 09:37 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell
Just out of curiosity, This is the same Simoni that Lance chased down as well? The guy that basically no one likes? The man who was suing Lance over lost wages for chasing him down and not giving him a chance in the break? My opinion. This guy deserves to get his ass handed to him in every way possible from everyone in the peloton. More vocal whiners are hard to come by. What a shame because the guy obviously has talent.
But it is the guy who said he was a better climber than Armstrong, and would destroy Armstorong in the TDF. The guy doesn't let logic or facts get in the way.
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Old 05-29-06, 09:46 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
A minute ago I was biased against Basso; now I'm just trolling. Keep us posted when you settle on another branch to support your shaky fanaticism.
While hardly a fanatic, I think we can all agree that prior to this Giro, Basso was heavily favored to win. He won, and by quite an amount.

Accusations from an established liar, and doper, can be easily discounted because he has done it so many times in the past to other riders. Why make an accusation when you cannot provide any proof or backup? When you are lying.

The whole Giro win conspiracy on bribes is just stupid. If this is the case, the level of conspiracy includes most riders in the UCI pro tour and their directeurs.

So Walter, was Ullrich bribed to take the broomwagon?
 
Old 05-29-06, 09:47 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by pigmode
I'm willing to give Simoni benefit of the doubt. To do otherwise is ludicrous.
Why? Please explain.
 
Old 05-29-06, 09:52 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
...the level of conspiracy includes most riders in the UCI pro tour and their directeurs.
Wow, I never expected such lucidity and clarity of thought from you. I'm sure you'll block it out immediately though.

Originally Posted by DocRay
...So Walter, was Ullrich bribed to take the broomwagon?
Yes, he was bribed with two podium girls and a box of streudels. Doesn't take much with Jan.
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Old 05-29-06, 10:25 AM
  #40  
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And he did not test positive for cocaine in the 2002 Giro. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start twitching in uncontrollable mob hysteria.
https://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/2314.0.html

Saeco suspends Simoni after second cocaine positive
Test during Giro showed cocaine, too
By Charles Pelkey
News Editor
This report filed June 1, 2002


Simoni showed positive for cocaine in May, too

The Saeco team suspended Gilberto Simoni and froze his salary Saturday as team officials responded to news that the 2001 Giro d'Italia winner had again tested positive for cocaine.

Simoni, who was pulled from the Giro by his Saeco-Longoni Sport team on May 24, after news was released that he had failed an out-of-competion dope test on April 24. Simoni claimed that the positive was the result of negligence on his part, saying that he had simply failed to report that he had visited the dentist the same day drug testers from the World Anti-Doping Agency showed up at his apartment.

Upon learning of that first positive result, Simoni immediately produced a statement from his dentist certifying that he had treated the Saeco rider on April 24 and, as part of that treatment, had used "a local anesthetic containing Carbocaine two percent with adrenaline."

The explanation, however, was disputed by pharmacologists, who said that the two drugs produce different results on tests. Doctor Larry Bowers, the senior managing director of the U.S. Antidoping Agency told VeloNews that there was "no way" that Carbocaine -- or its generic equivalent Mepivacaine -- would show up as cocaine in a drug test.

"If that was the only local anesthetic that he was given (as per the statement), then it is not possible that this is an explanation for a positive cocaine finding," Bowers said.

Bowers position was echoed by others in the field. Still, Simoni continued to protest the finding, saying that he was innocent. Saeco management expressed faith in their rider, opting to wait for the results of Simoni's B-Sample and the results of an ongoing police investigation into the claim. Italian police had taken samples of the anesthetic used by the dentist for purposes of analysis.

But Simoni's "dentist defense" took a big hit Friday after UCI anti-doping officials released the results of a drug test taken on May 21, following the ninth stage of the Giro d'Italia, nearly one month after the test that ultimately resulted in his expulsion from this year's Giro. his time, the test was conducted during the Giro d'Italia, following Stage 9, coincidentally, the same day Mapei's Stefano Garzelli, the Giro winner in 2000, was thrown out of the race after a second test had confirmed an earlier positive for the masking agent Probenecid.

On Saturday the team issued a statement explaining that news of a second positive "substantially modifies the situation," and announced that Simoni would be suspended without pay until it gets "a clear and substantial explanation of the case."
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Old 05-29-06, 10:31 AM
  #41  
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Well, he wasn't ejected from the Giro for a positive.

This second incident is the one WWIBD is referencing when he posted about Simoni's Aunt's pastries. Actually I think it was chocolates from South America which actually were found to have a cocoa product in them that would cause the body to produce the same metabolite produced by the body when cocaine is ingested. It was all perfectly coincidental.

Just ask Sacchi.

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Old 05-29-06, 10:36 AM
  #42  
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testing positive for cocaine takes some doing, with as much exercise as riders get, it would probably only show up in a test after less than 7-10 days if that

Last edited by pedex; 05-29-06 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 05-29-06, 10:50 AM
  #43  
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Walt why do you doubt Basso? Let's look at the the last three seasons and compare Simoni to Basso.

2003 Basso wins the white Jersey TdF

2004 Basso comes in third at TdF wins stage over Armstong
Simoni get dropped by his teammate at Giro complains endlessly because whe was not allowed
to win.

2005 Basso leads Giro until he succumbs to stomach virus, still goes on to win a mountain stage and a tt finishes second at TdF

Simoni loses to Savoldelli as he bonks on final climb to finish on penultimate stage.

Simoni has tested positive at least twice for a banned substance, Basso never. Accusations are one thing facts and proof are another.

In post you say that 'others' believe Basso is doping but only Simoni had the 'guts' to say it publicly. Then in another you say that we BF readers are so easily swayed by what we read. You seem to have some divine insight to what is true and what is not, how lucky for you. Until Basso tests positive he is considered a 'clean' rider, so if you don't like others speculating on what and what not is true please do so yourself.

What's obvious here is that Basso's career is on the asendency and Simoni's is on the decline. Also Simoni is a poor loser.

Did Basso dope? We don't know for sure (I'm one of the 'they all dope' crowd and I don't care) but I have doubts that Simoni is pure as the driven snow (pun intended) so for him to come out and call Basso a doper is beyond just sour grapes. If Basso made a deal and broke it then fine Simoni can be pissed and call Basso a liar but don't go beyond that, especially when you are most likely doing the same thing.
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Old 05-29-06, 11:01 AM
  #44  
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I don't know anything about the riders, but I'm biased toward believing Basso. I also think the Bobke's comment on OLN tends to support Basso (about the stage controversy). He said something to the effect of: it seems whenever he loses he tends to stretch the truth a bit.

I can believe Basso asked Simoni to slow down on the descent, but I don't believe there was any "you slow down on the descent and I'll let you win the stage." I also don't think that Jens gifted the stage. The MR team rider gets to sit on the break without working...its kind of a right. To take advantage of that and come around in the last minute to steal a stage win seems somehow unsportsmanlike. At any rate, the situation with Jens is totally different than the situation with Simoni.

As to the bribery thing...it makes no sense. How would that work...Basso offers to let Simoni win....that means somehow stopping him and Gutierrez (sp) for like 9 minutes so he can win. I'm thinking if Basso does this his career is over. The amount of money that would have to be offered would be so huge as to be laughable. I don't discount Simoni's story because I am a fan of Basso, I discount it because it just doesn't make sense.
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Old 05-29-06, 11:07 AM
  #45  
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Where did I say that I doubt Basso? He hasn't tested positive for anything. I don't know that the source of his strength is anything other than a natural gift. But his performance was far and away superior to anything he has ever done before. He didn't just win the Giro; he rode away from 3 former Giro winners and embarassed them in the process. Asking Gilberto to wait for him on the final descent then riding away from him on the final climb was not a very stand up thing to do, especially if they were supposed to be friends. He embarassed Simoni, and Simoni is pi$$ed.
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Old 05-29-06, 11:23 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Where did I say that I doubt Basso? He hasn't tested positive for anything. I don't know that the source of his strength is anything other than a natural gift. But his performance was far and away superior to anything he has ever done before. He didn't just win the Giro; he rode away from 3 former Giro winners and embarassed them in the process. Asking Gilberto to wait for him on the final descent then riding away from him on the final climb was not a very stand up thing to do, especially if they were supposed to be friends. He embarassed Simoni, and Simoni is pi$$ed.

So he's mad that he wasn't allowed to win. That makes it OK to call Basso a doper to the world wide media? To make an accusation that strong without any proof? You seem to condone this and your previous post seem to infer that Basso is on something rather than just his bike. I'm sorry but if Simoni is going to make such an accusation he'd better be able to back it up. Like you said look at his past, he's never been a gracious loser and this time he's gone too far.

As for embarrassing Simoni, Basso had been doing that since the TT and in reality Simoni embarrassed himself by this juvenile attack on rider who obviously his better.
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Old 05-29-06, 11:39 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
So he's mad that he wasn't allowed to win. That makes it OK to call Basso a doper to the world wide media? To make an accusation that strong without any proof? You seem to condone this and your previous post seem to infer that Basso is on something rather than just his bike. I'm sorry but if Simoni is going to make such an accusation he'd better be able to back it up. Like you said look at his past, he's never been a gracious loser and this time he's gone too far.

As for embarrassing Simoni, Basso had been doing that since the TT and in reality Simoni embarrassed himself by this juvenile attack on rider who obviously his better.
Now you're starting to sound like what you are accusing Simoni of by trying to attribute things to me I didn't say or infer but that you want to read into my comments. It's to bad you can't watch bicycle racing with some objectivity instead of this "my hero is always right" mentality.

And I never said Simoni had gone to far. Please do not put words in my mouth.

And if you want Basso to be your hero, that's fine by me. Personally, bicycle racers are not my heros. Let it go.
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Old 05-29-06, 12:15 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Yes, he was bribed with two podium girls and a box of streudels. Doesn't take much with Jan.
Heck, I'd settle for one podium girl and a box of streudel.
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Old 05-29-06, 12:54 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Now you're starting to sound like what you are accusing Simoni of by trying to attribute things to me I didn't say or infer but that you want to read into my comments. It's to bad you can't watch bicycle racing with some objectivity instead of this "my hero is always right" mentality.

And I never said Simoni had gone to far. Please do not put words in my mouth.
And if you want Basso to be your hero, that's fine by me. Personally, bicycle racers are not my heros. Let it go.
I didn't say you did. I said Simoni had gone too far. If he and Basso had an agreement and Basso broke it then yeah he should be pissed but don't call the guy a doper cause he's mad.

Basso is not my hero, that would Jens or Eki, Boonen is up there also. I like Basso and I would like Simoni if didn't shoot his mouth off so much and weren't such a poor loser. Just because I think Simoni is in the wrong here isn't the same as blind faith in Basso due to hero worship.
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Old 05-29-06, 12:59 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Now you're starting to sound like what you are accusing Simoni of by trying to attribute things to me I didn't say or infer but that you want to read into my comments. It's to bad you can't watch bicycle racing with some objectivity instead of this "my hero is always right" mentality.

And I never said Simoni had gone to far. Please do not put words in my mouth.

And if you want Basso to be your hero, that's fine by me. Personally, bicycle racers are not my heros. Let it go.
This doesn't make sense to me; here is a quote from Simoni after the stage. The quote is from Cyclingnews.

"Basso said to me, 'Don't drop me on the descent', so I thought I had a chance to win today; if I had thought Basso was going to do that in the finale, I would have played my cards differently," explained Simoni. "I'm just happy that the race is almost over," he said, looking disgusted.

If Basso had demanded money for the stage win, and Simoni refused to pay the money why was he surprised?

I will say again I don't know what happened. If everything Simoni says is true then it adds up to Basso being a jerk, but what else? I am sure the pro peleton is full of jerks.

Richard
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