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Simoni Accusation? Possible Spoiler.

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Simoni Accusation? Possible Spoiler.

Old 05-29-06, 01:05 PM
  #51  
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Things I have learned from reading all these posts:

1. Nobody on this forum knows for sure what transpired during the last descent and climb on Stage 20.
2. Simoni has a less creditable character than Basso at this point.
3. Simoni rode with Basso on the descent.
4. Basso dropped Simoni in the final dash for the line to take the stage win.
5. Never argue with a certain member of this forum, regardless of how compelling the facts may be, he's made up his mind prior to his first post.
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Old 05-29-06, 01:05 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Asking Gilberto to wait for him on the final descent then riding away from him on the final climb was not a very stand up thing to do, especially if they were supposed to be friends. He embarassed Simoni, and Simoni is pi$$ed.
There is no proof Basso asked him to do this. Secondly, the accusation is that Basso offered to sell him the stage win for a bribe (yet...as we all know, he was carrying a picture of his child to dedicate the win). Thirdly, he then referred to his wins as suspicious and "extra-terrestrial", which is essentially a doping accusation.

According to RAI Sportivo, Basso is looking into suing Simoni for slander. Given that Simoni has a record of doing this, and he has no proof of his accusations, he will likely get sued. You cannot accuse a person of illegal acts unless it is true and can be backed up, that defines slander. Armstrong has made a small fortune from these lawsuits. Note that Saunier Duval is not making comments.

This does not taint the Giro in any way. The italian press, which is historically very pro-Simoni, has been very critical of his judgement and personal comments about Basso. I would not be surprised if the UCI does not step in and penalize Simoni.

Simoni is at the end of his career, which could have been a graceful exit with several strong Giro finishes and two wins, but now he just looks like an idiot and poor sportsman to the world. Pathetic.
 
Old 05-29-06, 01:26 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
There is no proof Basso asked him to do this.

https://www.gazzetta.it/Speciali/Giro...girooggi.shtml
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Old 05-29-06, 01:32 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
There is no proof Basso asked him to do this....According to RAI Sportivo...
Since you cited a source out of the print media, it was an RAI Sportivo mortorcycle commentator immediately behind Basso who reported that Basso upshifted on his cassette before accelerating away from Simoni.
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Old 05-29-06, 01:34 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by serotta
Things I have learned from reading all these posts:
5. Never argue with a certain member of this forum, regardless of how compelling the facts may be, he's made up his mind prior to his first post.
You forgot couch racers and couch directors know more than people who actually race and direct.
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Old 05-29-06, 02:30 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
You forgot couch racers and couch directors know more than people who actually race and direct.
Learning is a two way street. The mistake is in thinking you know it all.
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Old 05-29-06, 02:50 PM
  #57  
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I said this in the other thread, just because he may have asked him to ride the descent together doesn't mean anything. Maybe he just wanted to go together to help each other stay away, from there the best man wins. Why on earth would Basso care anyway? He had the whole thing wrapped up at this point. What would have been more embarrassing? To get dropped starting the climb together or for Basso to pass him anyway after Gibo gained what...maybe 30 seconds on the descent?

If Basso "bribed" Gibo to let Gibo win; I would think it was just trash talking. "How much do you want to win this stage? Oh, that's all, ok then, bye!" LOL (I don't think he really did this)
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Old 05-29-06, 03:37 PM
  #58  
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Wonder if this thread would qaulify for an episode on the Jerry Springer show? No guess not, no naked women, cross dressers or other assorted wierdos (at least I hope). Personally, I pick thad's final paragraph as the best explation of the "bribe."
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Old 05-29-06, 04:08 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by serotta
Learning is a two way street. The mistake is in thinking you know it all.
I'm skeptical that a BF forum member would be able to school a veteren director or rider, especially one who has a long list of wins on his resume, about the ways of the peleton.

Some BF members, however, seem to have little doubt that they know more about riding and racing than say, Jens Voigt or Ivan Basso, or more about directing a team than Riis.

I suppose it's possible, but again, I'm skeptical.

I suppose there are putt putt golf players who can give Tiger advice on the nuances of his swing too. Seems just as likely.
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Old 05-29-06, 04:19 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot

That report says that nothing was heard or even spoken between the riders.
 
Old 05-29-06, 04:20 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Since you cited a source out of the print media, it was an RAI Sportivo mortorcycle commentator immediately behind Basso who reported that Basso upshifted on his cassette before accelerating away from Simoni.
So what? you make no sense.
 
Old 05-29-06, 04:21 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by serotta
Things I have learned from reading all these posts:

1. Nobody on this forum knows for sure what transpired during the last descent and climb on Stage 20.
2. Simoni has a less creditable character than Basso at this point.
3. Simoni rode with Basso on the descent.
4. Basso dropped Simoni in the final dash for the line to take the stage win.
5. Never argue with a certain member of this forum, regardless of how compelling the facts may be, he's made up his mind prior to his first post.
This is an accurate synopsis.
 
Old 05-29-06, 06:04 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
I'm skeptical that a BF forum member would be able to school a veteren director or rider, especially one who has a long list of wins on his resume, about the ways of the peleton.

Some BF members, however, seem to have little doubt that they know more about riding and racing than say, Jens Voigt or Ivan Basso, or more about directing a team than Riis.

I suppose it's possible, but again, I'm skeptical.

I suppose there are putt putt golf players who can give Tiger advice on the nuances of his swing too. Seems just as likely.
Since many people have posted, and I certainly mentioned no names, it's amazing that you read my mind and decided who I was depicting. Thin skins? Guilty before proven innocent and you felt the need to defend a defenseless position?
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Old 05-29-06, 06:46 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by serotta
Since many people have posted, and I certainly mentioned no names, it's amazing that you read my mind and decided who I was depicting. Thin skins? Guilty before proven innocent and you felt the need to defend a defenseless position?
Sorry, not getting this at all. Is this part of the Chewbacca defense? Really have no idea what you're talking about here, but sorry if you took it personal. Wasn't intended that way.

I think saying that it's unlikely that any BF "expert" knows bike racing better than the three people I mentioned is somewhat defensible, unless the real Eddie Merckx or Lance Armstrong has been lurking here and posting. Then we should all defer to the great ones.

I mean, these are the same people who thought Hincapie was the next great climber and Cunego was going to double the Giro and TDF in '05. Jeez, he can't even beat a crazy old man on peruvian flake who hears and sees things.
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Old 05-29-06, 06:59 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
Sorry, not getting this at all. Is this part of the Chewbacca defense? Really have no idea what you're talking about here, but sorry if you took it personal. Wasn't intended that way.

I think saying that it's unlikely that any BF "expert" knows bike racing better than the three people I mentioned is somewhat defensible, unless the real Eddie Merckx or Lance Armstrong has been lurking here and posting. Then we should all defer to the great ones.

I mean, these are the same people who thought Hincapie was the next great climber and Cunego was going to double the Giro and TDF in '05. Jeez, he can't even beat a crazy old man on peruvian flake who hears and sees things.
Always watch the rear view mirror as you back out of the tight space you parked yourself in!
I give you an A for effort.
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Old 05-29-06, 07:46 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by DocRay
That report says that nothing was heard or even spoken between the riders.
I thought you said you were Italian? This is excerpted from the first paragraph of the gazzeta article:

During the interview Basso came to Simoni for a shake-hands. Simoni:"I don`t accept your excuses."
Basso then explained:"It`s true that I asked him to take the descent together with me. But the rest is not true."
Simoni: "Shall I also say the sum ?" [the sum of money that Basso wanted from him for the win] Then Simoni went away


I'd say that is something spoken between the two. It is Basso admitting he asked Simoni not to drop him on the descent, of course the rest of what Simoni said was not true, at least according to Basso.

But Simoni will now have his chance to prove he is not just a sore loser, this according to cyclingnews.com:

Simoni will face a disciplinary committee of the Italian cycling federation next Monday, and may find himself in serious trouble if he can't substantiate the accusation. The burden of proof in such a case lies with the accuser and Simoni may find himself sanctioned by the federation if he cannot convince the tribunal of his claim.
Italian cycling figures have generally been unimpressed with Simoni's allegation. Mario Cipollini, the former sprinter who holds the record for the most number of Giro wins, said, "this sort of thing has always stayed within the riders' pack. They should have sorted it out over a bottle of good wine."
Vittorio Adorni, who won the Giro in 1965 and now works for the UCI, said, "Simoni behaved like a little kid. The informal rule, 'today's my turn and tomorrow yours', has always existed."
Italian Cycling Federation chairman Alcide Cerato accused Simoni of being, "a bad loser."
"It's not the first time he's lashed out at people who've beat him," Cerato added, referring to Simoni's attitude toward then-team-mate Damiano Cunego when Cunego won the 2004 Giro.



Now back to my polenta and ratatouille.

Bold added for the revisionist historians prone to ignore direct quotes in favor of popular myth.

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Old 05-29-06, 08:03 PM
  #67  
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Jer ry! Jer ry! Jer ry! Where's the bouncer just in case we need him?
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Old 05-29-06, 08:09 PM
  #68  
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What I understand from everything I've read
and heard (bobke?) Basso said to Gibo that
they didn't need to kill themselves on the descent.

Has anyone else heard/read this?
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Old 05-29-06, 08:37 PM
  #69  
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I wonder how much it would have cost?
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Old 05-29-06, 09:08 PM
  #70  
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Good question. I suppose the answer depends on who the money is coming from. If it is coming from the individual rider, say Basso(not that he would ever do that ), it might be less than if the offer came from the DS in the team car over the radio. When Jens gifted Garate the stage, Jens was on the radio for a couple of minutes talking to Riis. The company line was that Riis was trying to talk Jens out of giving the stage to Garate. But a conspiracy theorist might see the possibility that Riis was also talking to Quick Step about terms which may have been money or possibly future favors in another race that Quick Step stands no chance of winning, like say the TDF. When terms were finalized, Jens just gave Garate the go ahead.

Of course this is all speculation built on decades of tradition in the sport of these kinds of things happening.

So anyway, if the DS makes the offer, it is possibly because it is more important, therefore worth more, but in this case, Simoni was apparently incommunicado with his team or so it would appear, so it seems he is suggesting it was only between the two riders. That would make the amount dependent on a couple of things.

The impact the win have on the riders future career earnings is the key determinant on the amount. A classic win would be worth lots. A Giro stage lots also, but not as much as a classic. A TDF stage win would be worth more than a Giro stage, but not as much as a classic. Since riders build entire careers on just one win of a GT stage, that would make the win worth lots. But in Simoni's case, it gets murky. He is retiring soon. He has won the Giro and numerous stages in this GT and others. This win doesn't do much for him really. So every circumstance here would say this offer has very little value to Simoni, which is why it is so unbelievable. But for the average no name being given the opportunity, possibly tens of thousands of dollars, maybe 10 thousand dollars. Maybe more. I really have no idea. Just speculating.
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Old 05-29-06, 09:17 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
Some BF members, however, seem to have little doubt that they know more about riding and racing than say, Jens Voigt or Ivan Basso, or more about directing a team than Riis.
Don't forget Jan Ullrich and staff; every mope here knows more than them.
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Old 05-30-06, 03:03 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
[shaking head sadly]Wow, the mob is out in force. This just reinforces how easily people are controlled and manipulated by politicians. Pretty boy Basso, whom no one here knows anything about other than what they read in the media, flashes a photo of his infant child and he is a saint. How many jerseys will he sell off that?[/shaking head sadly]

bac, it appears you are one of the primary malfeasants in this by posting completely inaccurate information, lies, about Simoni. Simoni was not ejected from the 2002 Giro. He retired of his own volition. And he did not test positive for cocaine in the 2002 Giro. Maybe you should get your facts straight before you start twitching in uncontrollable mob hysteria. Here is the story:

From cyclingnews.com

Act Two of the comic opera that has become this year's Giro d'Italia opened today with the suprise retirement of 2001 Giro champion Gilberto Simoni. After his dramatic stage win yesterday in Campitello Matese that established him as the favorite in this years twisting, turbulent Giro d'Italia, Simoni had a big surprise waiting back at the Hotel Miletto in Campitello Matese where three police inspectors were waiting for him.

The trio of detectives had shown up from Trento, under the authority of provincial prosecutor Bruno Giardina, who has opened a file on Simoni under the motive of "possible of use of illegal drugs." Simoni was thus interrogated as a "person informed of the facts of the case"; coincidently for Simoni, his attorney Agostino Guardamagna, who had come to the Giro for the day, was present, as was Claudio Corti, Saeco-Longoni Sport team manager.

Simoni was able to confirm that while at the office of Dr. Bruno Grosselli of Torbole sul Garda for a filling on 24 April, an local anesthetic containing two percent carbocaine with adrenaline was administered to him, which was further corroborated by the medical certificate furnished by Simoni's dentist to the UCI and Giro race organization. Perhaps Trento prosecutor Bruno Giardina was fishing for another big case like Pantani's 1999 Giro d'Italia expulsion at Madonna di Campiglio which his office handled, but the scope of Giardina's investigation seems minor; mostly to verify where the traces of cocaine came from in the surprise drug test from the WADA on 24 April that allegedly found the cocaine in Simoni's urine sample. However, under the broad powers granted to prosecutors in Italy, Giardina and his investigators may chose to broaden the scope of the inquest considerably without substantial proof of wrongdoing.

Subsequent to his interrogatation, the pressure from the other teams in the Giro and the race direction to pull Simoni from the race became just too great for Claudio Corti to resist. Certainly Corti had to look at the big picture of protecting the entire team, but after, a bitter Simoni told La Gazzetta Dello Sport that "for me to stop now, after my win in Campitello Matese, will make everyone think I'm guilty (of doping) ."

Bitter words too from Giuseppe Martinelli, directeur sportif of Saeco-Longoni, who said "I only want someone to explain to me why the news of Simoni's non-negative test is coming out in the middle of the Giro and not before. If we knew before, he wouldn't have started and none of this mess would never have happened." As well as Simoni, Roberto Sgambelluri (Mercatone Uno) found non-negative for Nesp in Groningen was asked to leave by Giro Boss Carmine Castellano.
What's funny, is in the movie "The Quest", Simoni is interviewed about this incident. And in that interview, he states that he ingested the cocaine from candy he ate at a relative's house (I think he said aunt, it may have been his grandmother)...

It's in the first part of the DVD.

Last edited by roadwarrior; 05-30-06 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 05-30-06, 03:12 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Simoni has been a whiner and a sore loser, no doubt. But he is not the only one who is wondering how Basso, who has never before won a GT, could dominate every stage in the toughest Giro of recent times without a bad day or faltering for a moment. Simoni is just the only one who is willing to say it in public.
Had he not gotten sick last year, this would have been Giro #2...BTW, if you will recall, Basso kicked some booty after he recovered from his illness, through which he rode.

I'd also like to point out that Basso is the only guy on the planet the last two years that could stay with Armstrong in July.

This is not some one shot wonder. You might go back a couple of years and look at his results when he rode for Fassa. In 2003 he finished seventh, 10.12 back with only Cioni and Bruseghin to ride with him. And this was not a grand tour team.

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Old 05-30-06, 08:18 AM
  #74  
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Not strictly pertinent to this, um, discussion, but ...

When asked where he would like to finish in the TdF this year, Basso replied "just a little better than last year." He well might do.
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Old 05-30-06, 09:23 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
What's funny, is in the movie "The Quest", Simoni is interviewed about this incident. And in that interview, he states that he ingested the cocaine from candy he ate at a relative's house (I think he said aunt, it may have been his grandmother)...

It's in the first part of the DVD.
Yes, this was brought up in post #41 in this thread:


Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
This second incident is the one WWIBD is referencing when he posted about Simoni's Aunt's pastries. Actually I think it was chocolates from South America which actually were found to have a cocoa product in them that would cause the body to produce the same metabolite produced by the body when cocaine is ingested. It was all perfectly coincidental.
But thanks for confirming that.
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