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Simoni Accusation? Possible Spoiler.

Old 05-30-06, 09:33 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by roadwarrior
Had he not gotten sick last year, this would have been Giro #2...BTW, if you will recall, Basso kicked some booty after he recovered from his illness, through which he rode..
But that really is the point isn't it. A rider may be strong as a horse, (or a buffalo) , but if he breaks down over the course of a GT, then he cannot be considered a successfull GT rider. This has always been one of the defining characteristics of a successful GT rider, the ability to stay healthy through the 3 week race. Basso got sick last year. That may have been coincident or it may have been his inability to handle the stress of a GT. Look at the example of Danielson. He has broken down with something the last two Giros.


Originally Posted by roadwarrior
This is not some one shot wonder. You might go back a couple of years and look at his results when he rode for Fassa. In 2003 he finished seventh, 10.12 back with only Cioni and Bruseghin to ride with him. And this was not a grand tour team.
Fact is, this is his first GT win and it is unusual in that he had the largest time gaps over his competitors in recent history and his competitors included many previous winners of this race. Whether or not he is a one shot wonder will be seen. My opinion is he will win more GT's, but that doesn't mean his performance at this years Giro won't raise a few eyebrows.
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Old 05-30-06, 09:35 AM
  #77  
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I think Basso was screwing with Simoni. Saying things like, "don't drop me on the descent," is pretty funny considering Simoni could barely hang with Basso on the climbs. And taunting someone with something like, "I'll let you win if you pay me," is absolutely hilarious. "Psst. Hey, Simoni. I've got this stage win in my pocket. It's yours for fifty Euros. Did I mention my son was just born? No deal? You're sure? Then how about I crush you."

There's other ways to blow up on a climb. I think Basso was talking some smack and got in Simoni's head. And Simoni let him.
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Old 05-30-06, 09:42 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
Fact is, this is his first GT win and it is unusual in that he had the largest time gaps over his competitors in recent history and his competitors included many previous winners of this race. Whether or not he is a one shot wonder will be seen. My opinion is he will win more GT's, but that doesn't mean his performance at this years Giro won't raise a few eyebrows.
So using this logic (and I'm being generous with the term logic) then we should be suspicious of Simoni's performance as well. He finished almost 8 minutes ahead of last years Giro winner Savoldelli. That's a pretty big margin for someone who's career is on the decline so he must be an 'extraterrestrial'
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Old 05-30-06, 10:07 AM
  #79  
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So finishing 2nd in a GT is evidence of a declining career? OK.
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Old 05-30-06, 10:08 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by TomM
I wonder how much it would have cost?
I've seen $30K mentioned at another forum, can't vouch for that
as being correct or not.

Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
But that really is the point isn't it. A rider may be strong as a horse, (or a buffalo) , but if he breaks down over the course of a GT, then he cannot be considered a successfull GT rider. This has always been one of the defining characteristics of a successful GT rider, the ability to stay healthy through the 3 week race. Basso got sick last year. That may have been coincident or it may have been his inability to handle the stress of a GT. Look at the example of Danielson. He has broken down with something the last two Giros.
. . .
Danielson may be a good example of a GT rider not being able to maintain fitness through a
3 week race, but I believe Basso's illness last year was a result of food poisoning. No matter
how strong or healthy a person is if they eat something bad (i.e. salmonella the largest cause
of food poisoning) they're gonna get sick.
Given Basso's previous history in Grand Tours I would have to say his one day sickness is
an anomoly, not the norm.
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Old 05-30-06, 10:08 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
So finishing 2nd in a GT is evidence of a declining career? OK.
He finished third. You didn't answer my question.
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Old 05-30-06, 10:11 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by lotek
Danielson may be a good example of a GT rider not being able to maintain fitness through a
3 week race, but I believe Basso's illness last year was a result of food poisoning. No matter
how strong or healthy a person is if they eat something bad (i.e. salmonella the largest cause
of food poisoning) they're gonna get sick.
Given Basso's previous history in Grand Tours I would have to say his one day sickness is
an anomoly, not the norm.
Yes Basso has completed 3 TdF in a row with a white jersey a third and a second place to his credit. But the question remains what has he really accomplished?
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Old 05-30-06, 10:24 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by lotek
I've seen $30K mentioned at another forum, can't vouch for that
as being correct or not. .
I read $5k on another forum but can't vouch for that either.


Originally Posted by lotek
Danielson may be a good example of a GT rider not being able to maintain fitness through a
3 week race, but I believe Basso's illness last year was a result of food poisoning. No matter
how strong or healthy a person is if they eat something bad (i.e. salmonella the largest cause
of food poisoning) they're gonna get sick.
Given Basso's previous history in Grand Tours I would have to say his one day sickness is
an anomoly, not the norm.
Actually Basso's illness was reported as many things but it was generally agreed on that it was a stomach flu, not food poisoning. And the sickness lasted over three days.

Last edited by waltergodefroot; 05-30-06 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 05-30-06, 10:25 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
He finished third. You didn't answer my question.
You picked up on that. You're just trying to take things off on a tangent. The general principal I stated is sound. The fact is the only rider who could stay close to Basso is a rider who is now being implicated in a doping scandal. Go figure.
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Old 05-30-06, 10:30 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
You picked up on that. You're just trying to take things off on a tangent. The general principal I stated is sound.
Actually no tangent, the time difference between Basso and Simoni isn't that much bigger than the difference between Simoni and Savoldelli. Using your logic if Basso's accomplishment over Simoni should raise some eyebrows then so should Simoni's over Savoldelli.
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Old 05-30-06, 10:36 AM
  #86  
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I'm confused...Basso is not a great GT rider...having finished 2nd and 3rd in the TDF and having multiple stage wins in last years Giro....but Simoni is not in career decline for finishing 2nd (even though it was 3rd) in the Giro? Which is it...you are only a successful GT rider if you finish first, or podium finishes represent success in a career (and by extension, success in GT riding)?

(I also think it was food poisoning because Phil and Paul talked about how CSC brought a caterer this year to avoid any potential food problems)
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Old 05-30-06, 10:37 AM
  #87  
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What's truly ridiculous about this whole thing is that even if Basso did say something about accepting a bribe to let Simoni win, it was probably a joke or a misinterpretation of Basso talking trash to the guy. And hey--if Simoni really deserved the stage he would've fought back and followed Basso to sprint around him in the last 1/2km...

Unfortunately it's Basso's word against Simoni's, which is a bad place to be if you're Simoni, given the sterling reputation he's made for himself.

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Old 05-30-06, 11:46 AM
  #88  
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I'm sure food poisoning was mentioned somewhere, but not at cyclingnews.com that I can find. For those who think it was food poisoning, here are some escerpts:

Stage 13:
Someone who clearly suffered today was Ivan Basso, who had stomach trouble all day and vomited after the stage. Although Basso was too indisposed to talk to the media, his CSC team director Bjarne Riis explained after the stage that, "Ivan doesn't feel good...he had a bad stomach all day, so I can say that we were lucky today because the team was strong. We managed to keep the pace high for him so (Ivan) didn't have to worry about attacks. In the end he didn't lose that much. And we hope that he's OK tomorrow...if not, it will be tough for him."

Stage 14:
Today, another drama unfolded on the brutal slopes of the Stelvio as Giro favorite Ivan Basso (CSC) had stomach problems for the second day in a row. Less than halfway up the 27km ascent in Trafoi, Basso dropped off the pace of the gruppo maglia rosa. Surrounded by the rest of his CSC team, Basso began his terrible struggle over the next 77km that would finally get him to Livigno 42'15 after stage winner Parra in 88th place, and end any chance for him to win this year's Giro d'Italia. A diminished Basso explained post-stage that "It was a real calvary for me today. I was really bad... I couldn't eat or drink and as soon as I did, I had to vomit. But I really wanted to finish the stage today."
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Old 05-30-06, 12:06 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
Actually no tangent, the time difference between Basso and Simoni isn't that much bigger than the difference between Simoni and Savoldelli. Using your logic if Basso's accomplishment over Simoni should raise some eyebrows then so should Simoni's over Savoldelli.
OK, I see your point. You're suggesting that both Basso and Simoni were doping. OK, I can see how you could see that.

Last edited by waltergodefroot; 06-30-06 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 05-30-06, 01:03 PM
  #90  
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Yes I THINK it was food poisoning and not some stomach bug. Cyclingnews only mentions
his drinking alot of cold water the night before the stage.
And even if it wasn't due to food poisoning the fact that Basso could recover sufficiently to take 2 back to back stages after that one bad day speaks more to his being in good health than any speculation that he was not fit enough to be a GC contender.
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Old 05-30-06, 01:36 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
OK, I see your point. You're suggesting that both Basso and Simoni were doping. OK, I can see how you could see that.
Right, all I'm saying is if you are going to allude to doping as to why Basso has such big gaps on his rivals then you have to look back and see the same for Simoni.

The other thing about Basso's ride is that he did it in 1 and 2 minute chunks on a course that you would expect to see large time gains. With so many mountain top finishes the time gaps are always going to be minutes rather than seconds. If Basso had taken 5-6-7 minutes per stage that would be one thing but he did it small bits.

Simoni lost 1.26' in TTT and 3.56' in the ITT alone there's 5.22' right there. Basso has been a better TT'er than Simoni for years now, so over the next 9 mountain finishes Basso only put 6 min into Simoni. It's not so extraterrestrial after all now is it?
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Old 05-30-06, 02:02 PM
  #92  
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I don't see it mentioned here but Simoni is quite good at descending and Basso was, at one time anyway, known for being poor at it.
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Old 05-30-06, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dial_tone
I don't see it mentioned here but Simoni is quite good at descending and Basso was, at one time anyway, known for being poor at it.
This is true, Basso has never been known for his fearless descents, but he won the stage by 1.18', he may have lost 30-40s to Simoni had he left Basso on his own on the descent. Further he could have let Simoni go on to win the stage and it wouldn't have had any effect on his overall placing. The other thing that doesn't make sense is that Simoni first said that Basso asked him to wait on for him on the descent, and if he'd had known that Basso was going to drop him on the climb he'd have played his cards differently. Inferring that he thought Basso would let him win. Now he's says that Basso tried to get Simoni to pay for the win and Simoni says he doesn't need any gifts. Which is it, is Simoni mad because Basso didn't' gift him the win or is Simoni outraged because he was being asked to pay for the win.

Nothing about what Simoni is saying really is very credible other than Ivan asked him to wait on the descent.
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Old 05-30-06, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dial_tone
I don't see it mentioned here but Simoni is quite good at descending and Basso was, at one time anyway, known for being poor at it.
This is true, Basso has never been known for his fearless descents, but he won the stage by 1.18', he may have lost 30-40s to Simoni had he left Basso on his own on the descent. Further he could have let Simoni go on to win the stage and it wouldn't have had any effect on his overall placing. The other thing that doesn't make sense is that Simoni first said that Basso asked him to wait on for him on the descent, and if he'd had known that Basso was going to drop him on the climb he'd have played his cards differently. Inferring that he thought Basso would let him win. Now he's says that Basso tried to get Simoni to pay for the win and Simoni says he doesn't need any gifts. Which is it, is Simoni mad because Basso didn't' gift him the win or is Simoni outraged because he was being asked to pay for the win.

Nothing about what Simoni is saying really is very credible other than Ivan asked him to wait on the descent.
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Old 05-30-06, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
This is true, Basso has never been known for his fearless descents, but he won the stage by 1.18', he may have lost 30-40s to Simoni had he left Basso on his own on the descent. Further he could have let Simoni go on to win the stage and it wouldn't have had any effect on his overall placing. The other thing that doesn't make sense is that Simoni first said that Basso asked him to wait on for him on the descent, and if he'd had known that Basso was going to drop him on the climb he'd have played his cards differently. Inferring that he thought Basso would let him win. Now he's says that Basso tried to get Simoni to pay for the win and Simoni says he doesn't need any gifts. Which is it, is Simoni mad because Basso didn't' gift him the win or is Simoni outraged because he was being asked to pay for the win.

Nothing about what Simoni is saying really is very credible other than Ivan asked him to wait on the descent.
Although I side with Basso (everytime I start to like Simoni something like this happens) my intention was to show that theoretically Basso could have crashed trying to stay near Simoni on the descent and lost too much ground to make up to battle for the stage win.
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