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Lance admits EPO use? NOT DURING CANCER TREATMENT

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Lance admits EPO use? NOT DURING CANCER TREATMENT

Old 06-23-06, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by lotek
ok, I've edited the thread title, and I'll state it again.
We are NOT discussing his cancer treatment, this alledges
PRE-CANCER use.
go back, reread the articles.
Am I missing something? I must be.

But here's a piece from the article:

"Lance Armstrong admitted he has taken the performance-enhancing drug erythropoietin (EPO) at the time he was treating his cancer, French daily Le Monde reported on Friday."

Is EPO not a cancer treatment?
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Old 06-23-06, 09:52 AM
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EPO is a treatment for cancer treatment- mild distinction and seems to be the basis of the nuanced english usage.
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Old 06-23-06, 09:59 AM
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and from https://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug...ters&type=lgns


""According to new testimonies gathered from October 2005 to January 2006 by a court in Dallas, the seven-times Tour de France winner told a Indiana University Hospital doctor on October 28, 1996 he had taken performance-enhancing drugs," Le Monde said. "

So it's alleged that he took performance-enhancing drugs prior to October 28, 1996. Big deal.
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Old 06-23-06, 09:59 AM
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That article is odd, though. The tense is all screwed up making what Lance said and when he said it somewhat confusing. There's no flow from the first paragraph were Lance admits he took EPO during his bout with cancer (which you would expect) to the second parapgraph about what he allegedly told his doctor while Andreau was present.

And then this from the article: 'WADA chairman Dick Pound rejected the Vrijman report [accusing Lance of lying and doping] as "bordering on the farcical."' So Dick is on Lance's side now? I'm confused.
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Old 06-23-06, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by celticfrost
Am I missing something? I must be.
Yes, mostly because its a poorly written sentence:

"The doctor questioned him on a possible use of doping products after his brain surgery in order to prescribe his post-surgery treatment.


"In front of (former team mate) Frankie Andreu and his wife, who have testified under oath in Dallas, Armstrong said he had taken 'EPO, testosterone, growth hormones and cortisone'," Le Monde added.


The "after his brain surgery" refers to the questioning was after the surgery but the question related to prior drug use.

The yahoo artcile linked above makes the allegation a little clearer.


you beat me cromulent.
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Old 06-23-06, 10:04 AM
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It's enough to make my head spin. And last I checked, Lance did all his tour wins after cancer correct?
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Old 06-23-06, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by celticfrost
Am I missing something? I must be.

But here's a piece from the article:

"Lance Armstrong admitted he has taken the performance-enhancing drug erythropoietin (EPO) at the time he was treating his cancer, French daily Le Monde reported on Friday."

Is EPO not a cancer treatment?

Really two topics here:
- Reference to the fact that Lance admits to using EPO DURING his cancer treatment; this is already known...I believe he mentioned it during the famous Larry King interview and stated that there's no way that traces of EPO from '96 would still be around 3 yrs later when he won in '99.

- Allegations that when they were determining his cancer treatment regimine, he admited to the doctor that he had used EPO in the past (from Rueters article: ""According to new testimonies gathered from October 2005 to January 2006 by a court in Dallas, the seven-times Tour de France winner told a Indiana University Hospital doctor on October 28, 1996 he has taken performance-enhancing drugs,")
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Old 06-23-06, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
The yahoo artcile linked above makes the allegation a little clearer.
You're right about the yahoo article. It's much clearer as to what Lance allegedly said about what he took and when he took it.
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Old 06-23-06, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FixdGearHead
Really two topics here:
- Reference to the fact that Lance admits to using EPO DURING his cancer treatment; this is already known...I believe he mentioned it during the famous Larry King interview and stated that there's no way that traces of EPO from '96 would still be around 3 yrs later when he won in '99.

- Allegations that when they were determining his cancer treatment regimine, he admited to the doctor that he had used EPO in the past (from Rueters article: ""According to new testimonies gathered from October 2005 to January 2006 by a court in Dallas, the seven-times Tour de France winner told a Indiana University Hospital doctor on October 28, 1996 he has taken performance-enhancing drugs,")
Yes, thank you. My 1st post was in regards to the 1st article ( https://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...archived=False ).

The second topic that you mentioned is in the other article ( https://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug...=afp&type=lgns ). If all "they" can come up with are allegations about him taking performance-enhancing drugs before 10/28/96, then it's no big deal IMO.
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Old 06-23-06, 10:26 AM
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Couple of notes on the case. They have settled and paid Lance the money he is owed.

As for weather or not it's a big deal that LA took PED prior to his TdF wins, it is. LA has continually stated the he HAS NEVER TAKEN A PED. That was NEVER. In my book never means NEVER.

I could care less if he did or he didn't, because like some others here on BF I believe they all dope so essentially it's an even playing field. I also believe that LA would have trounced the competition if they were all clean as well.
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Old 06-23-06, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
Couple of notes on the case. They have settled and paid Lance the money he is owed.

As for weather or not it's a big deal that LA took PED prior to his TdF wins, it is. LA has continually stated the he HAS NEVER TAKEN A PED. That was NEVER. In my book never means NEVER.

I could care less if he did or he didn't, because like some others here on BF I believe they all dope so essentially it's an even playing field. I also believe that LA would have trounced the competition if they were all clean as well.
I'm saying the allegations are no big deal. If it's proven he took PEDs prior to TDF wins, then I'd say it's a small big deal .

Yes, I believe it's probably an even playing field too and if Lance and everyone else doped, Lance wins and if nobody dopes (including Lance), then Lance wins. It's just all these constant doping stories that are a bit disheartening and things probably won't change any time soon.
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Old 06-23-06, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
...LA has continually stated the he HAS NEVER TAKEN A PED. That was NEVER. In my book never means NEVER.
I've always heard people say that Lance is always qouted as saying he's "NEVER tested positive" for PED. Don't have examples to cite one way or another - but that is a bit of a play on words. Again - I don't have any examples one way or the other, so I'm just going off what I think I recall people saying.

Reminds me of the Chevy Chase quote (I think maybe FLETCH?) - something along the lines of:

- "Ever been convicted of a felony?"
- "Convicted? No, No, never...never."
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Old 06-23-06, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by FixdGearHead
I've always heard people say that Lance is always qouted as saying he's "NEVER tested positive" for PED. Don't have examples to cite one way or another - but that is a bit of a play on words. Again - I don't have any examples one way or the other, so I'm just going off what I think I recall people saying.

Reminds me of the Chevy Chase quote (I think maybe FLETCH?) - something along the lines of:

- "Ever been convicted of a felony?"
- "Convicted? No, No, never...never."
From Lance's apperance on Larry King live after the L'Equip article



"The testing lab seriously violated two WADA [World Anti-Doping Agency] protocols." He repeated the same flat statement he's made for seven years, that he never used EPO or any other doping agent during his professional cycling career. Prompted by Costas, Armstrong did agree that EPO was part of his chemotherapy during his epic battle with testicular cancer, but "the last time I used it was late 1996"—well before his first win in the Tour de France in 1999.


I think the word NEVER was used here.
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Old 06-23-06, 10:56 AM
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"...the last time I used it was Late 1996."

Would've been funny had Larry followed that up with the question "When was the first time?"
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Old 06-23-06, 11:00 AM
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Just a grammar point- If you could care less, rather than couldn't careing less, then you have some interest. I could (and perhaps should) care less about many things that are very important to me. I couldn't care less about things that I don't care about at all.

Back on topic: This whole case is meaningless. If LA said he has never taken PEDs then he was mistaken. I have never seen such a quote attributed and sourced. That he never took illegal PEDs is another matter. Certainly the EPO and other cancer treatment drugs could qualify, but more fundemetally, water is a legal PED (try riding without drinking for a month).

As for the specific charges, I doubt very much anyone can or will take action on these allegations. UCI may or may not have jurisdiction at the time of the alleged use (USAT/IOC may). Violations of US/state laws would require proof that use occured in those places (not to mention statue of limitations). European countries would have the same problem of proof showing domestic use. WADA has no jurisdicion in cases this old. the UCI has no jurisdiction to punish a retired cyclist but could retroactively suspend him (but when?). The whole thing is more complecated than anyone should deal with. The point of this seems only to change public opinion- how sad is that?

The proof in this case seems to be a case of he said that he said to a doctor- not very reliable. Any lawyer would be able to tear this testimony apart if indeed it was even admissable (if you could figure out where LA used PEDs in the first place).
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Old 06-23-06, 11:12 AM
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Just as spelling note, you spelt:

fundemetally, fundamentally

occured, occurred

jurisdicion, jurisdiccion

complecated , complicated

admissable, admissible

wrong.



As for you interpretation of the what PED is, in the context of this discussion we can presume that it is a banned substance.
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Old 06-23-06, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by FixdGearHead
Reminds me of the Chevy Chase quote (I think maybe FLETCH?) - something along the lines of:

- "Ever been convicted of a felony?"
- "Convicted? No, No, never...never."

I believe it from Stripes, and it's Bill Murray and Harold Ramos
*****exual? Flaming? no not flaming.
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Old 06-23-06, 11:21 AM
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Velonews reports this:

Two French magazine stories slated for distribution this weekend charge that seven-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong allegedly admitted taking banned doping products after being diagnosed with cancer. The stories are based on evidence given under oath to a court in Dallas in late 2005 and early 2006.

The charges appear in Saturday's edition of the French daily Le Monde and in this weekend's edition of L'Equipe magazine.

Armstrong's attorney strongly denied the claim, calling it "absurd," and gave The Associated Press a copy of an affidavit from one of the lead doctors who treated Armstrong's testicular cancer.

According to former friends of the American cyclist, Armstrong, who was diagnosed with testicular cancer in October of 1996, allegedly told a doctor in Indiana University Medical Center later that month, after undergoing brain surgery, that he had previously taken several banned substances, including EPO, testosterone, growth hormones and cortisone.

The magazine stories are based on evidence given under oath in a Dallas court by Betsy Andreu, wife of Frankie Andreu, a former friend and teammate of Armstrong, who claim they were both present when the cyclist is said to have discussed doping with the doctor. The incident was originally described in the 2004 book, "L.A. Confidential," by Sunday Times of London sports reporter David Walsh and former L'Equipe cycling writer Pierre Ballister. Testimony by both Andreus is consistent with Walsh's description of the hospital conversation.

Frankie Andreu made the same statement in a late-2005 deposition, according to documents acquired by VeloNews. Both Andreus previously told the same story during an arbitration hearing between Armstrong and his insurance company SCA Promotions. Armstrong sued SCA after the company declined to make a $5 million payment to the cyclist after he won his sixth Tour de France. The company indicated a reluctance to make the payment after doping allegations were raised in Walsh's 2004 book. According to sources near the case, a settlement was reached after the court indicated that the SCA contract contained no provision to negate the payment, even if cheating had occurred.

Betsy Andreu testified that the doctor asked Armstrong whether he had ever taken doping products, and that the cyclist replied, "Yes."

"He asks which ones. And Lance replies, ''EPO, growth hormones, cortisone, steroids, testosterone,'"' Betsy Andreu said in sworn testimony in January.

Armstrong's attorney, Tim Herman, rejected the Andreus' charges.

"There were probably 10 people in the room. Betsy was apparently the only one that recalls this alleged incident," Herman said, adding that he has 280 pages of medical records from Indiana University Medical Center that refute the allegations.

Armstrong's doctors repeatedly asked him during his treatment about substances he may have taken and Armstrong answered only that he occasionally drank beer, Herman said.

Another Armstrong friend, Oakley representative Stephanie McIlvain, who was also present at the meeting with the doctor in 1996, denied having heard Armstrong say that he took doping products.

And in a sworn affidavit, Dr. Craig Nichols - one of the doctors treating Armstrong at Indiana University Medical Center - said he and other medical personnel visited with Armstrong that day about his medical history before he started chemotherapy, and no such admission was ever made in his presence.

Now the chair of hematology-oncology at Oregon Health and Sciences University, Nichols said that Armstrong "never admitted, suggested or indicated that he has ever taken performance-enhancing drugs. Had this been disclosed to me, I would have recorded it, or been aware of it, as a pertinent aspect of Lance Armstrong's past medical history as I always do."

"Had I been present at any such 'confession,' I would most certainly have vividly recalled the fact," Nichols, a member of the Scientific Advisory Committee of the Lance Armstrong Foundation, continued. "I would have recorded such a confession as a matter of form, as indeed, would have my colleagues. None was recorded."

In his own defense, Armstrong said in a November deposition that no doctor had ever asked him whether he had used doping products and that Betsy Andreu held a personal grudge against him. Armstrong suggested that Frankie Andreu had simply gone along with his wife's account in order to offer her support.

"I stand by my deposition," Betsy Andreu told VeloNews Friday. "I didn't ask to be dragged into this mess ... We were served with subpoenas by a Michigan court and we had no choice but to testify."
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Old 06-23-06, 11:30 AM
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Here's the thing: the article says that Frankie's wife says that Lance's doctor was preparing his post-cancer treatment regimen and needed to know if he'd taken any drugs in the past and Lance said, yes, i took X,Y,Z. Now seriously, does anyone here think Lance is having that conversation with his doctor with Frankie's WIFE in the room, let alone Frankie?!! That's a private patient/doctor conversation that at most has Lance and his mom in that room. Please.
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Old 06-23-06, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
From Lance's apperance on Larry King live after the L'Equip article



"The testing lab seriously violated two WADA [World Anti-Doping Agency] protocols." He repeated the same flat statement he's made for seven years, that he never used EPO or any other doping agent during his professional cycling career. Prompted by Costas, Armstrong did agree that EPO was part of his chemotherapy during his epic battle with testicular cancer, but "the last time I used it was late 1996"—well before his first win in the Tour de France in 1999.


I think the word NEVER was used here.
Interesting that the "last time was late 1996" from above, and that these statements were supposed to have been made late October of the same year. Which means, unless his cancer treatment EPO use was from Nov-Dec 1996 only, then LA's statement to the doctors did mean cancer related uses.

It is unfortunate that racers feel they have to dope to level the playing field when so many use them. How do you stop it? I think it would be easier to answer questions like curing cancer or world peace. Short of banning each and every racer now in the peloton and raising a new group of riders from infants with implanted 'PED sensors' there will always be ways around testing. Building a better mouse trap just makes for smarter mice.
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Old 06-23-06, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I believe it from Stripes, and it's Bill Murray and Harold Ramos
*****exual? Flaming? no not flaming.
Yes; I do believe you are correct - STRIPES (getting my classic '80s comedies mixed up) - though I believe in that same scene (speaking with the Army recruiter), he does ask "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" and Bill answers "Convicted? No, never."

(Wow - how off topic have I gotten here!?)
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Old 06-23-06, 11:41 AM
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The Velonews article makes the allegations even more outrageous. If this accusation was made in a deposition then it has become subject to our courts- we are not getting the whole story.

Sorry for the spelling mistakes- my spelling is atrocious and my spell checker is not working correctly. I would, however, argue that spelling mistakes are fundamentally different than logic problems (i labeled it grammar because it is a poorly learned and common mistake for people using that particular phrase).

Spell checker is fixed (for now).

[edited for spelling]
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Old 06-23-06, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by TomInFLA
Also, all this stuff gives me more opportunity read the name "Dick Pound", which I still think is one of the funniest names on the planet.
Dick Trickle is funnier.

 
Old 06-23-06, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
Velonews reports this:

Two French magazine stories slated for distribution this weekend charge that seven-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong allegedly ...
Stop reading here.

The french press has repeatedly proven that they are not reliable.

Flogging a head horse.
 
Old 06-23-06, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by donrhummy
Here's the thing: the article says that Frankie's wife says that Lance's doctor was preparing his post-cancer treatment regimen and needed to know if he'd taken any drugs in the past and Lance said, yes, i took X,Y,Z. Now seriously, does anyone here think Lance is having that conversation with his doctor with Frankie's WIFE in the room, let alone Frankie?!! That's a private patient/doctor conversation that at most has Lance and his mom in that room. Please.
That's also what doesn't click for me. I do not think a doctor would ask or have such a conversation with a patient unless in total privacy. I even don't think his mom would be allowed. It just doesn't make sense unless the phrase was part of social/unformal first contact conversation with the intent to "break the ice". Such a response from LA could then be a joke. Now Andreu's wife is not lying. But the article doesn't mention anything about the context of the conversation. Was it a serious one or an ice breaker one? You sell papers by using catch phrases and putting doubt in readers' minds not by detailing the whole truth. That's the same game played by politicians and lawyers; word games.
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