TheKillerPenguin

I have a stage race coming up starting with a TT on thursday, and I'm having a bit of difficulty with my TT position. I have full leg extention, I feel comfortable, my back is flat, my aero helmet is just about touching my back, and I'm able to pull on the aerobars. But there are a couple of huge problems. 1) I can't get my HR up to LT when in position. My LT is 181-183ish but I'm having trouble even getting my HR up to 175 and keeping it there. 2)the very top front of my thighs are going numb when I go at a decent clip.

My guess is that the angle between my legs and torso is so small at the top of the stroke that it may be restricting blood flow, thus keeping my HR low and making the tops of my legs go numb But, I'm not sure. I can't move my seat any farther forward to open up the angle, but I suppose I could move the bars farther back.

The TT I'm doing is only 6 miles, so I have to be able to have my HR high and I have to have my legs firing on all cylinders right off the bat. Any ideas as to what's wrong with my position?

TheKillerPenguin

One more thing- I have a different seat than I'm used to on my bike right now, it's a lot more cushioned than my SLR. I don't think that has anything to do with my problems though.

Vinokurtov

Might have the seat too far back. Throw the plumb bob kneecap/pedal axle standard out the window for a TT bike. Is it the post that's not allowing you to move it further forward? Offset post? You may need a straight one with zero offset.

TheKillerPenguin

Can't do it, I have the seat as far forward as it'll go. I could move the aerobars back though.

Warblade

We definately need a picture in order to help with your TT position.

Vinokurtov

That's not going to do much to open up the hip/leg torso. Might try raising the bars a bit to bring your torso up. If you have a setback post laying around, sometimes you can flip it to get the seat moved up or go for something with an extended nose like the Arione.

Might also try angling the seat nose down a little to push you forward.

Helpful if you had a digital and could have someone shoot some pics from the side and front...

Vinokurtov

Beat me to it

TheKillerPenguin

I'll get some pics up by tonight!

TheKillerPenguin

Guess my back isn't as flat as I thought!

note the flipped setback seatpost and the position of the seat on it:



side top of stroke, from knee height:


side top of stroke, from shoulder height:


front from shoulder height:


front from bar height:


side with leg extended:

merlinextraligh

your position really isn't that radical. In fact the handlebars could be lower, and your back a little flatter. I think its just a matter of getting used to the different position. How many miles have you ridden with that set up.? Also, your elbows are a bit far foward, you could use a shorter stem (which is typical going to a TT set up) but thats not the cause of your issue. You've just got to practice in the TT position before your TT. Won't help for thursday, but in the future if you're goig to be doing TT's try to ride the TT bike once a week or so, and several times a week in the few weeks before a big TT.

DrWJODonnell

Possibly a shorter stem, but you HAVE to drop the stem lower (take the spacers out). In addition, you can find a stem with a much steeper negative angle to get those bars low. Your elbows do not need to be that narrow, as it can restrict the breathing that far in. If it is comfortable, leave them alone. Seat height is great but as an important point, your wrists are extended in every shot. You want them to be in line with your forearm. Won't save you a lot of time (10 seconds over 40k??) but your arms and hands shoud slice the air and then guide it around your thighs (thus the elbows wider thing). I would not pull the bars back more unless you cannot do a shorter stem, as not being able to rest your weight near the elbows diverts blood to your upper extremities due to contracting those muscles in order to keep the forearms level. As set up, You might be better riding no aero bars and instead going Merckx style as you can get lower in the drops. Biggest thing is the position of that stem.

TheKillerPenguin

Thanks, last night I TT'd and had no armrests on the front, I just rested them on the top of the bar. I put the armrests on because I figured it'd make my frontal section narrower, but I could take them off if you say it'll make me more aero.

As for removing spacers/flipping stem: I'm not sure how that'll affect the numbness in the top of my legs? Any ideas as to what could be causing the numbness? Any ideas as to what could be keeping my HR down? Could it be like merlin suggested, that I'm simply not used to the position? Today was only my second ride with aerobars ever, and between yesterday and today I have about 32miles riding with them on my bike.

FYI, I do seem to be significantly faster with the aerobars on. Usually when I TT, I rest my forearms on the bends and grip the very top of the hoods. Last night I pulled 20.89mph on a 6mi course that ends 400ft higher than the start, with a headwind, I know usually for that road I'm about a minute slower without a headwind. I'm also able to be in my 15T on the flats, with occasional spurts in the 14. Just sucks that I still don't feel I'm going at full strength.

zimbo

I'd say flip the stem and widen the elbow pads so your wrists are straight.

--Steve

Vinokurtov

I'd agree that you need to get the stem/bars lower, and move those elbow pads out a touch.

As for the numbness and the power, part of it is probably getting used to the position, but I'd also consider dropping the nose of the seat. Give it a try, it should rotate your hips and and generate more power.

For me, I like to feel like I'm very lightly sitting on the seat on the TT bike. When things are right it's similar to the feeling you get when you're standing on the pedals.

I'd like to see where you're knees are with the pedals at 9 and 3 O'clock.

And if you're in doubt, defer to the Doc, he's got a couple of MPH to spare

TheKillerPenguin

I removed all the spacers and that alone makes me feel a bit better. Easier to keep my wrists aligned with my forearms. I'll tip the nose of the saddle down and take off the elbow pads and just use the flats on top of my bar (can't move the pads out, I have a wing bar) as well.

Vinokurtov

If the flats are uncomfortable, hit Home Depot and pick up a length of foam pipe insulation, you can cut some pieces and tape them on for pads.

Warblade

if you have a 90mm or 100mm stem lying around that would really help too. Maybe you could bum one off of someone.

cat4ever

-Drop your head/neck straight down. Look at your front view, your head is sticking way up.
-Raise your hands above your elbows.
-Flare your elbows out just a bit more. Knees right behind elbows.
-Your wrists look like they would hurt after a while, but sadly with those clip ons, you can't adjust your hands to be closer.
-Ride fast

DrWJODonnell

Don't worry so much about the HR. In fact, if set up right, this will give you lower cardiac stress, and so your HR will be lower for the same amount of effort. In effect, your LTHR may change in that position (if muscular strength is limiting as in too large a gear). As for the numbness, saddle tilt is where I would look, although even the slightest change can REALLY alter your weight distribution, so tilt it less than you think you should. The numbness can arise from a number of things including saddle tilt, hamstring tightness, saddle width, too much/little saddle/short padding, or even undiagnosed back problems. I cannot tell you from where this arises, only that you should be aware of the fact that many reasons for this can exist. Oh, and lets have pics of the modifications you have made. I might agree with the raising of the hands relative to the elbows, but I felt that the stem changes might obviate that need.

TheKillerPenguin

Just got back from my ride. A couple of notes-

Last night I removed the spacers, removed the elbow pads, tilted the saddle slightly down, and pushed the aerobars slightly back (I'm not gonna be able to get a new stem, so I figured pushing the bars back would be a decent substitute). During my ride today, I tilted the bars slightly up so that the grips were just above my elbows. My elbows can comfortably rest in front of my knees on the tops of the bar, and my hands are aligned with my forearms now. I'm holding my upper body up with the slightest bit of pressure on the grips of the aerobars, and I'm still able to pull on them when I need to. Helmet is still in contact with my back, and my head feels a bit lower.

Tilting the aerobars slightly up for some reason seems to have slightly opened up the hip/torso angle, and in conjunction with the other changes, seems to have made the numbness a lot less intrusive. ODonnell, I do have a saddle with a lot of padding on there now...I did this so I could keep my regular saddle setup on my other seat post for ease of replacement for the rest of the stage race. That stuff you say about HR makes a lot of sense, although I don't have enough time to discover what my LT in my position is at this point. Definitely stresses my heart less, definitely not breathing as hard in this position. I assumed that meant I'm not working hard enough, but I'm glad to hear its normal.]

One last thing- should I allow myself to shrug? As in, should I allow the center of my back to droop below my shoulders, and just let the back of the helmet rest in there?


I doubt there's any way I'm getting more pictures taken today...lots of packing to do, not a lot of time to set it up on the trainer and move stuff out of the way. Thanks for the help!

TheKillerPenguin

okay, I lied. Didn't wear the skin suit, but hopefully that doesn't screw up what you can tell about my fit. About the bubble wrap- we're in the middle of moving.




side with leg at top of stroke, shoulder height:


side with leg at top of stroke, knee height:


side with leg at bottom of stroke, knee height:


This one is for you vino- side with legs at 3 and 9 o'clock:


Front from eye height:


Front from bar height:


So, you have a bit less than 4 hours to tell me about my position. After that, I'm gone for the weekend!

DrWJODonnell

Looking better. I don't know how comfortable your forearms will be there, but if its only 6 miles you are done in 11-14 minutes in any case. On the trainer its looking better, but do you have any control of your bike in that position? Crashes tend to add a little time to the equation. Wrists are still extended, but it wont be a huge difference in such a short TT. As for the HR, when you get out on the course, it will shoot up immediately, so don't be fearful about getting it up. Chest can sage between your shoulders or not. Most people tend to actually arch a little to take deeper breaths, but if you can relax and sag, it is better from an aero standpoint. Just don't compromise your breathing to do it. At this point, whatever comes naturally.

Overall, make sure you can control the bike (if not then moving the extensions back out will assist you there) and that your knees are not going to hit your elbows as you slide forward to a more aggressive position while racing. Outside of that, I am thinking you are getting about as close as you can with your current setup. Good luck and let us know how the race (and the TT) turn out. You are going to see a LOT of my team represented (assuming this is Fitchburg), and I was really hoping to be able to go and take first in the TT and make everyone try to steal my jersey oh well. Best of luck.

TheKillerPenguin

Thanks, it is Fitchburg, and I'm hoping to tear the 4 field a new one

Vinokurtov

Get some cool sunglasses and you're ready. Good luck!

TheKillerPenguin

I got a pair, I just figured I'd look like a tard if I wore em while I was on a trainer