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They all Dope...

Old 07-02-06, 08:44 PM
  #26  
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It certainly looks like a large percentage is doping. I don't think any of us can say with certainity what the perecentage is.

As far as Lance goes I would like to believe he didn't, but I would not plunk down money in Vegas. The biggest question I have with Lance and the dope is; after fighting for his life with cancer why would he risk his health again with potentially dangerous drugs. I am not saying he didn't use them, but it would have been a hell of a decision after almost dying.

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Old 07-02-06, 09:02 PM
  #27  
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Regardless of who said, "Vigilance is the price of freedom", it applies here in that skepticism and vigilance branch from a common root, an active mind, not a mind given to accepting stereotypes. It is reasonable to be skeptical of Lance's accomplishments. It is unreasonable to accuse him of doping since he was never found guilty of it. It is reasonable to be skeptical about Saiz. It is not reasonable to convict him without due process. This premise applies to every cyclist in the sport today.

Since this sport has a history of demanding it's athletes to accomplish feats no reasonable person could imagine accomplishing, and since it has a history of drug use, it is only reasonable that everyone be vigilant about it's use. This is why rigid enforcement is a must. Stiff penalties a necessity. But just because some cyclists take short cuts and cheat, doesn't mean they all do. Think what that would mean for you if that were true.
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Old 07-02-06, 09:10 PM
  #28  
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I don't know guys, I think the real Walter Godefroot would probably have a good idea of the amount of doping in the peloton.
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Old 07-02-06, 09:13 PM
  #29  
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I guess I just don't want to take sides on this thing. For me, just put them on TV, dirty or not, and I'll watch if I have the time. Does it matter to me if athletes are role models to youngsters? Of course. But I believe adults--whether they are parents, coaches, teachers, neighbors, whomever--have the responsibility to indicate to young athletes, and all kids for that matter, who's being fair and who's not. And why. So many excellent examples right now.
But for us adults, what difference does it make? They'll be chasing this forever, somebody will always be dirty, and sometimes the clean folks win anyway!

Some things never seem to go away, and maybe they shouldn't. Maybe each and every generation needs to hash some things over again to decide for themselves. Is doping and cheating in sports going to be one of them?
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Old 07-02-06, 10:49 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by cslone
I don't know guys, I think the real Walter Godefroot would probably have a good idea of the amount of doping in the peloton.

No kidding, Hey Walter how come the UCI kept asking for a 6 month ban for riders who fail drug tests, instead of the 2 years that WADA had in the code?


Also, why aren't the clean riders complaining about the dopers who are basically stealing money and noteriety from them.
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Old 07-02-06, 10:58 PM
  #31  
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You'll never be able to keep up, so you'll always be saying that the people beating you are cheating. Try actually going out and training for awhile, like say 3-5 years consistently instead of 3-5 days and then back to the couch. You'd be amazed at the difference consistency could make in your life. You might find enough gratification from it that you wouldn't need to spend all your time on internet forums trashing people.
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Old 07-02-06, 11:17 PM
  #32  
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is that your answer?
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Old 07-03-06, 01:54 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
...How many times has this been posted by fans on this forum and why?

The reason why is clear when one considers the question in the context of how people think. Fans of this sport cannot distinguish who is or is not using PED's by merely looking at the riders or their performances. There are the obvious extraterrestrial performances like Basso's Giro that cause fans to go , but many of the users are average riders using so they can just keep their jobs. So how can one watch a race and know who is or is not using? It isn't possible.

So, since the fan cannot distinguish the real from the fake, in order to avoid having to put up with the uncertainty, they resort to an intellectual expediency called a stereotype, and they chose to believe that Everyone is doping.. How sad, but since fans of this sport are no different than people in general, it makes sense that they would resort to the same devices to avoid thinking that the majority of people in this world resort to.

People, fans of bike racing, who chose to believe that all bike racers are doping are lazy, intellectually lazy, because they don't want to take the time to become familiar with all the racers, their characters, and which are the ones who are most likely to ride clean. Plus, and perhaps more importantly, they don't want to have to deal with the emotional impact called disappointment that comes from having applauded a rider or his performance then finding out they were tricked, the performance was fake, and the entire thing was an illusion.

You know which posters on this forum are saying, "They're all dirty.", or "The Pro Tour is dirty.", or continually rehashing allegations about drug use and rumors about this or that rider. These posters never talk about the riders who publicly speak out against doping or who have been found innocent of charges and accusations. Why? Because they want to reinforce the stereotype that makes it easier for them to resolve the contradictions in this sport.

Which one are you? An intellectually lazy stereotyper or a thinking, discriminating fan who takes each case on it's own merit. For my part, I'll chose the latter.


Ok, I hope im not the only one offended by this post. So just because i believe doping is the standard in cycling im a dumbass?


You sir, are a moron...

Last edited by Dead Roman; 07-03-06 at 02:00 AM.
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Old 07-03-06, 06:34 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Dead Roman
Ok, I hope im not the only one offended by this post. So just because i believe doping is the standard in cycling im a dumbass?


You sir, are a moron...
And a tool
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Old 07-03-06, 09:05 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Dead Roman
So just because i believe doping is the standard in cycling im a dumbass?
You caught on quick. Congrats.
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Old 07-03-06, 12:10 PM
  #36  
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Just another bunch of trolling posts puffing up WG's fragile self worth. Really, telling yourself you're good enough, you're smart enough, and gosh darn it people like you works better at boosting self esteem than declaring how wonderful you are compared to the rest of the population.

Last edited by Vinokurtov; 07-03-06 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 07-03-06, 01:03 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
Just another bunch of trolling posts puffing up WG's fragile self worth. Really, telling yourself you're good enough, you're smart enough, and gosh darn it people like you works better at boosting self esteem than declaring how wonderful you are compared to the rest of the population.
And I think you'll find that no matter where a person goes, there will always be somebody bigger, stronger, meaner, smarter, and friendlier than them.
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Old 07-03-06, 08:09 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Dead Roman
Ok, I hope im not the only one offended by this post. So just because i believe doping is the standard in cycling im a dumbass?


You sir, are a moron...
Maybe it comes down to how you view life.

Polly Anna - they didn't test positive so they have to be clean

Cynic - They all dope

Granted, I do believe the definition of a cynic is an optimist with experience

Hey Walt, I didn't bother reading the whole bloody thread (it's just too long and tiring) but what's your beef with someone saying everyone dopes? Is it an honor thing? A factual correctness thing? A desire to not look at the state of cycling and logically extrapolate or hypothesize?

Just curious...
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Old 07-03-06, 08:59 PM
  #39  
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I don't think they all dope. I do think those that want to win the Tour or any other brutal stage race do dope however. So Armstrong never tested positive ... BFD, neither did Millar. Armstrong was a very good one-day rider. You don't have to dope to win a one-day event. You can let it all hang out there for one day. Then he rode the Tour and saw that it was a tad different. And quit. Then he saw how a TdF winner rode when Indurain rode him off his wheel and realised what it would take - "superhuman" was how he described him. Yes, it's just my opinion. And no, I don't care what you think. Honestly people ... who cares what anyone thinks really - this is a BBS fer Gawd's sake. But it goes without saying that Smoothie has pretty much got it right ...
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Old 07-08-06, 07:07 PM
  #40  
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A pertinant link:
Jaksche's doctor: drug use common (scroll down to the bottom)

In general, I guess I'm what mojo calls a cynic. The peloton's average speed increases yearly, I don't think it's just because they rode more miles or Chris Carmichael's training techniques (not implicating any particular rider).

Who do you blame? Sponsors want visibility, that requires results. Team needs sponsorship. Team management cannot condone, encourage, or otherwise unambiguously tell riders to dope. Thus, I'm sure many have told riders "If you're performance doesn't improve, you'll be cut from the team", and the rider fills in the blanks. But, ultimately, it's the individual that tips the syringe.
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Old 07-10-06, 05:25 AM
  #41  
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As far as I am concerned, until a rider has been scientifically tested and proven to be a doper, they aren't.
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Old 07-10-06, 05:42 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by SilentShifter
As far as I am concerned, until a rider has been scientifically tested and proven to be a doper, they aren't.
Halleluia

So your message to young riders is exactly the one of corrupt cycling coaches:
"Kid, if you wanna become a great rider, dope, but don't get caught. We have the means of hiding it all..."
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Old 07-10-06, 06:53 AM
  #43  
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https://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2274

Fuentes also confessed he had been working with some riders who are still riding the Tour de France. Its possible that the person who wins the Tour might have had a consultation with me. There are riders there linked to me, but I wont ever say who they are. If all the names came out of the riders who have been linked to me and the ethical code was applied by the Tour organisers, the organisers would be the only ones to reach Paris, Fuentes declared.

Hmmm, I wonder if the good doctor will be seen as a evil publicity seeker and doping doctor or if he'll be labeled as one of the guys telling the truth like Manzano?
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Old 07-10-06, 08:26 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Mojo GoGo
https://www.procycling.com/news.aspx?ID=2274

Fuentes also confessed he had been working with some riders who are still riding the Tour de France. Its possible that the person who wins the Tour might have had a consultation with me. There are riders there linked to me, but I wont ever say who they are. If all the names came out of the riders who have been linked to me and the ethical code was applied by the Tour organisers, the organisers would be the only ones to reach Paris, Fuentes declared.

Hmmm, I wonder if the good doctor will be seen as a evil publicity seeker and doping doctor or if he'll be labeled as one of the guys telling the truth like Manzano?
What I would have found normal is for Fuentes to tell who in the peloton, who were in the famous list, were NOT his customers/patients, or didn't have anything to do with him. Or would this be considered as a "confession" to who his patients were? Hmmm, tricky one.
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Old 07-10-06, 09:10 AM
  #45  
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Nine of the doctors riders were suspended from riding the Tour. Let's assume that he's got nine left in the Tour that's 10% of the peloton being doped by just one doctor. I think it's also not hard to believe that Dr Fuentes isn't the only person facilitating the use of PED's in the professional peloton.
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Old 07-10-06, 10:47 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by adamastor
What I would have found normal is for Fuentes to tell who in the peloton, who were in the famous list, were NOT his customers/patients, or didn't have anything to do with him. Or would this be considered as a "confession" to who his patients were? Hmmm, tricky one.
He has indicated to some degree riders who were not his clients. He has mentioned that he has not worked with CV since 2003 - that he worked with the "old guard" there but doesn't even know the riders currently working for them.

As goofey as it sounds, I think he is trying to respect doctor / client confidentiality until compelled to by a court. If he refutes working with some riders but provides a "no comment" on others he might as well come out and call them clients...
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Old 07-10-06, 10:52 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by adamastor
Halleluia

So your message to young riders is exactly the one of corrupt cycling coaches:
"Kid, if you wanna become a great rider, dope, but don't get caught. We have the means of hiding it all..."
Absolutely not! My message would be to stay away from that crap. If you want to succeed you have to bust your ass and work harder than everyone else. To me, its the sign of a weak person if they can only win with enhancing drugs.
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