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They all Dope...

Old 07-02-06, 02:22 PM
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waltergodefroot
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They all Dope...

...How many times has this been posted by fans on this forum and why?

The reason why is clear when one considers the question in the context of how people think. Fans of this sport cannot distinguish who is or is not using PED's by merely looking at the riders or their performances. There are the obvious extraterrestrial performances like Basso's Giro that cause fans to go , but many of the users are average riders using so they can just keep their jobs. So how can one watch a race and know who is or is not using? It isn't possible.

So, since the fan cannot distinguish the real from the fake, in order to avoid having to put up with the uncertainty, they resort to an intellectual expediency called a stereotype, and they chose to believe that Everyone is doping.. How sad, but since fans of this sport are no different than people in general, it makes sense that they would resort to the same devices to avoid thinking that the majority of people in this world resort to.

People, fans of bike racing, who chose to believe that all bike racers are doping are lazy, intellectually lazy, because they don't want to take the time to become familiar with all the racers, their characters, and which are the ones who are most likely to ride clean. Plus, and perhaps more importantly, they don't want to have to deal with the emotional impact called disappointment that comes from having applauded a rider or his performance then finding out they were tricked, the performance was fake, and the entire thing was an illusion.

You know which posters on this forum are saying, "They're all dirty.", or "The Pro Tour is dirty.", or continually rehashing allegations about drug use and rumors about this or that rider. These posters never talk about the riders who publicly speak out against doping or who have been found innocent of charges and accusations. Why? Because they want to reinforce the stereotype that makes it easier for them to resolve the contradictions in this sport.

Which one are you? An intellectually lazy stereotyper or a thinking, discriminating fan who takes each case on it's own merit. For my part, I'll chose the latter.
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Old 07-02-06, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
...Which one are you? An intellectually lazy stereotyper or a thinking, discriminating fan who takes each case on it's own merit. For my part, I'll chose the latter.
Walt you don't perhaps work for a political polling company do you.? This is a typical question raised by someone trying to bias an answer, "Would you rather vote for a strong on terrorism Rebublican or die a horrible death and vote for a Terrorist loving Democrat?" You've asked the question in such way as to shame the respondent into the answer you want them to give.

I for one will not say EVERYONE in the pro peloton dopes, I'm sure that there are many of the domestiques and mid-level riders who race clean. But I feel pretty confident that the top 50 riders in the world dope. Too many riders have come out and said as much and they are always decried as trying to tear down the sport. Many riders from the past who have had the guts to openly talk about drugs also state the doping is wide spread. This doesn't take away for me the beauty of bike racing nor does it make me feel any less awe at the feats these guys perform. I've said it before that you could give me all the drugs in the world and I still couldn't hold these guys wheels if they were stone clean.

Having said that I will say that I'm glad for once the real culprit has been punished. Not the rider but the DS and the team management. These are the people that facilitate the doping. These are people that pressure the riders, or turn a blind eye, then act shocked when one of their riders tests positive. Or, like the case of Saiz, supply the riders themselves. Yet in the past it's only been the rider who has paid the price. On the few occasions when a rider has told the truth he has been ostracized and demonized. Saiz isn't the only DS who does this and you should know it. Why do you think when all the DS got together they were so quick to agree? Not one spoke out to defend their riders, not one spoke out to try to replace their riders. Each one knows that they are just as guilty as the riders who have been caught. The last thing they want now is to get into a pissing match with WADA and the UCI.
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Old 07-02-06, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
...I for one will not say EVERYONE in the pro peloton dopes...
I guess I thought you had already taken sides on this issue. These are your comments aren't they?:

Originally Posted by el diablo rojo
I could care less if he did or he didn't, because like some others here on BF I believe they all dope so essentially it's an even playing field. I also believe that LA would have trounced the competition if they were all clean as well.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...pe#post2684912
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Old 07-02-06, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
...There are the obvious extraterrestrial performances like Basso's Giro that cause fans to go
i hope you aren't a lance fan. i'm just wondering why you chose basso's lone dominant giro victory as your example of an "extraterrestrial performance." uhhh..how about 7 straight TDF victories? nothing abnormal about that?
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Old 07-02-06, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by dog hair
i hope you aren't a lance fan. i'm just wondering why you chose basso's lone dominant giro victory as your example of an "extraterrestrial performance." uhhh..how about 7 straight TDF victories? nothing abnormal about that?
No other reason than proximity; it happened recently.
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Old 07-02-06, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dog hair
i hope you aren't a lance fan. i'm just wondering why you chose basso's lone dominant giro victory as your example of an "extraterrestrial performance." uhhh..how about 7 straight TDF victories? nothing abnormal about that?
Mistaken logic. Because wg used Basso as an example in his post in this thread sheds no light whatsoever on his stance on Lance's alleged doping. As he says, timliness.
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Old 07-02-06, 03:31 PM
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Walt you don't perhaps work for a political polling company do you.? This is a typical question raised by someone trying to bias an answer, "Would you rather vote for a strong on terrorism Rebublican or die a horrible death and vote for a Terrorist loving Democrat?" You've asked the question in such way as to shame the respondent into the answer you want them to give.
Glad somebody else caught that too.
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Old 07-02-06, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by RockyMtnMerlin
Mistaken logic. Because wg used Basso as an example in his post in this thread sheds no light whatsoever on his stance on Lance's alleged doping. As he says, timliness.
actually...not so much. i just wanted to make sure we weren't dealing with some lance armstrong extremist.
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Old 07-02-06, 03:55 PM
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Lance's defense of doping allegations has always been, "I have never tested positive for doping", and, "I have been tested more than any other athlete."
But, David Millar never tested positive for doping, but definitely used EPO.
Several riders have been convicted of doping, but never tested positive. Festina riders were on everything, but never tested positive.
We'll see what happens to Basso and Ullrich, but not testing positive for doping doesn't mean anything.

Frankly, I'll never believe anyone who comes near Riis is not a doper.
 
Old 07-02-06, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
I guess I thought you had already taken sides on this issue. These are your comments aren't they?:




https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...pe#post2684912

I can also produce many posts where I clarified my position to state that I believe that anyone in the top 50 is doping. The "everyone" statement were made to be more of macro view of the sport. Again I don't think we can ever say everyone with certainty but the anecdotal evidence leads me to conclude that the doping is more prevalent in the sport than not.
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Old 07-02-06, 04:26 PM
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How much worse of an argument can you make? (Please don't try to craft a worse one) Your base argument is flawed because there are, of course, other options and you offer only two [false dichotomy]. Additionally, your use of specific words to produce specific emotional responses is dishonest (intellectually lazy?)[Poising the well].

To the question of whether they all dope or not is: I don't know. I'd rather not stereotype the news people as honest and since I don't know each of them I cannot assume their writings to be true. Since I don't know personally, my honest answer is that I don't know. Accepting that the news can be wrong is not without precedent but that is not to say that all news is fabricated.

Your line of thought is dangerous because it is intellectually lazy yet vaguely convincing. You dismiss some stereotypes while accepting others blindly and attempt to form people's beliefs (although poorly) through propaganda style questions.

As for your idea of what fans should or should not do [it] is yours. Do not project that onto the rest of us. You track the sport as you wish and I'll do it my way.

Also, please note, no one has been "found innocent" rather we (the western world based on Roman law) presume innocence until sufficient, credible evidence proves otherwise.

edit: to add [it]

Last edited by Trevor98; 07-02-06 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 07-02-06, 04:50 PM
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One of the best articles I have ever read on the subject of performance enhancing drugs and competitive cycling:

Waiting for the day when 'I've never tested positive' may mean something

By Prentice Steffen, MD, FAAEM
This report filed September 29, 2004

"I've never tested positive."

We've all heard this statement (or some variation) from any number of athletes. A lot of athletes and their supporters seem to think this is a meaningful argument. Certainly many people seem to be persuaded by those four simple words. But it's sad to say that these days, the statement "I've never tested positive" is very nearly meaningless.

So far, that is.

There are signs of progress that may some day give real meaning to the claim of never having tested positive. Of course some athletes move from this falsely persuasive argument to outright lies of denial of doping. That I won't be able to explain, except to say quite simply that there is a lot of money and prestige on the line in these situations.

The key to understanding all of this is knowing the key doping substances used, how they work, how they are tested for (if they even can be), and how the testing is inadequate. What follows may appear to be an athlete's "how to dope" primer, but in fact this information is such common knowledge to sports insiders that there's little risk that it will corrupt anyone. None of this requires a Ph.D in anything to understand ... just a certain amount of thought, an open mind, and a willingness to understand this critical aspect of doping.

Three important doping substances to consider are erythropoietin (EPO), growth hormone (GH), and the anabolic steroid testosterone. I'll stick to these three as a good start. There are certainly many others, such as synthetic oxygen transporters, masking substances, and good old fashioned blood transfusions (much has been written on this relating to Tyler Hamilton's recent positive result in the Vuelta). For a truly frightening description of the future of doping, read the recent article on gene doping in Scientific American

Current testing for these substances is inadequate for one or all of three main reasons:

* No tests exist for the drug.
* The performance-enhancing effects of the drugs last well after the time it takes for the body to flush them out.
* The substances are identical to those produced naturally by the body, so thresholds must be set to levels that are clearly dangerous and/or unnatural.

Natural EPO, for example, is produced by the kidneys and stimulates the bone marrow to produce more red blood cells. Red blood cells carry oxygen to working muscles. More red blood cells equal increased endurance. Synthetic EPO is produced in Chinese hamster ovary (CHO) cells grown in culture, using recombinant DNA technology. For nearly 10 years after its introduction, there was no anti-doping test for synthetic EPO.

In 1997, a limit was put on how high an athlete's blood count could be as a replacement for a direct test of synthetic EPO use. This measurement is called the hematocrit, and the limit was set at 50 percent. The hematocrit is the percentage of volume in a sample of blood that is taken up by just the red blood cells; the rest is taken up by serum and other blood-cell types. More red blood cells equal a higher hematocrit, which equals increased endurance. The 50 percent cut-off was set somewhat arbitrarily.

The important point here is that the average hematocrit for a professional cyclist is 42-43 percent, which leaves a considerable margin for manipulation up to the 50 percent cut-off. Competing with a hematocrit of 50 percent instead of 42 percent can constitute a significant enhancement of one's performance.

In 2001, a urine test was introduced that could detect the very subtle structural difference between natural EPO and synthetic EPO. Scientists know that the electrical charge of synthetic EPO is slightly different from that naturally produced by the human body. The test, developed in France, measures the charge of those isoforms. If too many in a sample show up with the incorrect charge, it is flagged as a positive.

The problem is that the test is only reliable for two or three days after the synthetic EPO is injected, while the lifespan of a red blood cell is six to eight weeks. In other words, the effect of synthetic EPO persists long past our ability to test for it. Indeed, some, more sublte, methods would allow a well-informed athlete to clear traces within 12 to 24 hours, allowing someone to continue to using EPO and still not test positive, even in multi-day events like the Tour de France.

Growth hormone is produced by the pituitary gland and has many effects throughout the body. The primary benefit, at least as it relates to athletic performance, is its ability to increase muscle size and strength. Until very recently, there has been absolutely no way to detect the use of growth hormone. Reportedly, such a test was implemented during the recent Athens Olympics, but the anti-doping authorities are intentionally (and I believe quite appropriately) mysterious about the introduction of new tests, so very few know the particulars of this method.

Finally, testosterone is an anabolic steroid that increases muscle mass and strength. The synthetic anabolic steroids (stanazol, norandralone, etc.) are molecules that are distinctly different from anything the human body produces and are consequently fairly easy to test for.

Testosterone, on the other hand, is a quite simple molecule and is easily synthesized. Even the synthetic version is absolutely identical to the testosterone produced by a human male's testicles. Consequently, detection is difficult, and authorities have been forced to rely on an indirect - and quite ineffective -method to test for the use of synthetic testosterone.

Natural testosterone, like all substances in the body, is eventually metabolized and eliminated. The body breaks testosterone down into a substance called epitestosterone. Both testosterone and epitestosterone are eliminated by the kidneys into the urine. At any point in time, if these two substances are measured in the urine, a ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone can be calculated. This "T/E ratio" averages about 2.5:1.

The use of synthetic testosterone should change this ratio. Somewhat like the 50 percent hematocrit cut-off established to watch for synthetic EPO use, anti-doping authorities have set a cut-off level for the T:E ratio at 6:1. Again, that leaves an awful lot of latitude, giving a dishonest athlete an upper limit to aim for. Even within that 6:1 T/E ratio there are significant performance benefits to be gained.

So what's to be done? The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) was formed in 1999 as the international agency charged with setting anti-doping policy and implementing anti-doping testing. Up to that point, individual sports' governing bodies were expected to test their own athletes; this resulted in fairly obvious conflicts of interest in which positive test results were suppressed to avert bad publicity for the sport involved.

Some of this conflict of interest seems to survive among some sports governing bodies and national anti-doping agencies, but the formation of WADA is a huge step forward. WADA has shown itself to be aggressive in its mission - it serves as a neutral and objective agency to oversee anti-doping and is structured to be free of all conflicts of interest.

August 13, 2004, the opening day of the Athens Summer Olympics, was day one of WADA's control of anti-doping efforts. Embarrassingly enough, our sport's own Union Cycliste Internationale became the last international governing body to sign. It was only under threat of exclusion from the '04 Games that the UCI signed, and it did so only on the very last day possible. Talk about a reluctant participant.

The WADA Code adopts several fundamental changes in the approach to fighting doping in sports. For example, it emphasizes targeted out-of-competition testing rather than random testing during competition, when most athletes are obviously ready for the increased scrutiny. Under the new rules, an athlete's entourage (physician, coach, trainer, etc.) are held more responsible for their actions when an athlete tests positive. Of course, considerable effort and resources will be invested in research to improve current anti-doping testing.

The WADA Anti-Doping Code is a lengthy, complex document, but these are the types of changes WADA has incorporated in its code; changes that have begun to make a real difference. WADA president Dick Pound and everyone actively involved in the anti-doping effort are to be praised for their victories at the Athens Olympics. Never before has the effort been so obviously successful.

If WADA is allowed to honestly carry out its mission, there may come a day when an athlete states that he or she has "never tested positive," it actually means something."

Dr. Prentice Steffen, board-certified in both Emergency Medicine and Sports Medicine, served this year as team physician for the Heathnet/Maxxis and TIAA-CREF/5280 Magazine teams. He has served as team physician for several teams over the years including Prime Alliance, Mercury, Spago and U.S. Postal. Steffen has also served as medical director and event physician for major races, including the Tour Du Pont, New York City Marathon and the Tour de Trump. Steffen also serves as the sports-medicine section editor for the Journal of Emergency Medicine. His services are outlined in detail at www.pdssportsmed.com
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Old 07-02-06, 05:00 PM
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Bockman, nice find!
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Old 07-02-06, 05:11 PM
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These posters never talk about the riders who publicly speak out against doping or who have been found innocent of charges and accusations.
You used the seach function to find where El Diablo Rojo made a statement about cyclists doping.

How about using the search function to locate a post where you "talk about the riders who publicly speak out against doping or who have been found innocent of charges and accusations."

Then we can learn from your example as well.
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Old 07-02-06, 05:31 PM
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Certainly there is a Christophe Bassons in the peloton somewhere
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Old 07-02-06, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by dog hair
i hope you aren't a lance fan. i'm just wondering why you chose basso's lone dominant giro victory as your example of an "extraterrestrial performance." uhhh..how about 7 straight TDF victories? nothing abnormal about that?
With a super strong team and all of your focus being on ONE race EVERY year for which you sacrifice everything else, from race results to your personal life, it's not too terribly abnormal... The doping question aside, LA was a TdF specialist for the past 7 years, and he, his DS, and his team did it better than anyone.

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Old 07-02-06, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
How much worse of an argument can you make? (Please don't try to craft a worse one) Your base argument is flawed because there are, of course, other options and you offer only two [false dichotomy]. .
So then what are the other choices we can make when viewing the doping situation.? Please enlighten us.

Originally Posted by Trevor98
You dismiss some stereotypes while accepting others blindly and attempt to form people's beliefs (although poorly) through propaganda style questions..
Ummm, what stereotypes do I accept blindly in the above post??? Making a statement without support is of course a flawed argument.


Originally Posted by Trevor98
As for your idea of what fans should or should not do is yours...
You were trying to form a complete sentence here, I know. I'll give you a -C- for effort.

Originally Posted by Trevor98
Also, please note, no one has been "found innocent" rather we (the western world based on Roman law) presume innocence until sufficient, credible evidence proves otherwise.
The subject of being found innocent(or guilty for that matter) was not even brought up in my post. Are you just rambling here or did you want to make a point about something?
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Old 07-02-06, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by El Diablo Rojo
I can also produce many posts where I clarified my position to state that I believe that anyone in the top 50 is doping. The "everyone" statement were made to be more of macro view of the sport. Again I don't think we can ever say everyone with certainty but the anecdotal evidence leads me to conclude that the doping is more prevalent in the sport than not.
Assuming this is true, this is also resorting to stereotype and expedient thinking on your part since you have no reason to conclude this. What anecdotal evidence do you have that supports the assertion that the top 50 cyclists are doping? So the 51st best cyclist in the world isn't doping? And who is making this top 50 list? This is of course completely arbitrary thinkiing and an attempt on your part to resolve the conflict between what you know and don't know about professional cycling. You know some cyclists are doping, but you don't know who, so you said everyone is doping to resolve the conflict, but now your shifting ground and it isn't everyone; it's just the top 50??? Does this really make sense to you?

Why can't you just live with the fact that the only way we will know who is or is not doping is through enforcement procedures as listed in the article above and accept that until a rider is found guilty of doping, he should be given the benefit of the doubt and considered clean? As far as I'm concerned, every rider who has been implicated in Operation Puerto is clean until they are proven guilty. As far as I'm concerned, Saiz is innocent until a court of law finds him guilty. Why are you suspending the basic and fundamental right to presumption of innocence for cyclists?

Or do you consider all people guilty of wrongdoing just because they have the capacity to do wrong?
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Old 07-02-06, 07:10 PM
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They all fukin dope. I'm not drinking the clean peloton koolaid Walt.
Troll on.
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Old 07-02-06, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by daytonian
They all fukin dope. I'm not drinking the clean peloton koolaid Walt.
Troll on.
wow, you're to smart for me. I can't argue with that.
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Old 07-02-06, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Bockman
Current testing for these substances is inadequate for one or all of three main reasons:

* No tests exist for the drug.
* The performance-enhancing effects of the drugs last well after the time it takes for the body to flush them out.
* The substances are identical to those produced naturally by the body, so thresholds must be set to levels that are clearly dangerous and/or unnatural.
That info is out of date. Modern Amgen EPO has an epitope tag to allow it to be detected. Amgen changed it to address abuse issues.
However, any sleazy private biochemistry lab could purify the hormone from blood, or make the untagged version.

Ok. How to fix this:
1. criminal charges, with jail time
2. civil suits- riders should be liable
3. lifetime bans first offence
 
Old 07-02-06, 07:48 PM
  #22  
Trevor98
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Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
So then what are the other choices we can make when viewing the doping situation.? Please enlighten us.
People can believe all pros dope for whatever reason they want. For example, some people could have received personal testimony from friends associated with the racers or some people could believe the aliens that told them (I don't need to believe in other peoples rationales in order to argue that there are other rationales besides the two you provide). This counter point is weak as I don't need to provide a list of other reasons people may believe that all cyclists dope in order to know that people believe some weird stuff and that you dismissed everything you didn't like. You came off as a intellectual elitist with no ability to accept others believing differently than you. You dismiss any other as "intellectually lazy" thereby squelching people's other reasons.

Ummm, what stereotypes do I accept blindly in the above post??? Making a statement without support is of course a flawed argument.
I thought your simple title assertion was enough support for my conclusion. You seem to accept, that the doping investigations are unbiased, and that the tests are accurate (good stereotypes but still stereotypes)—not unreasonable beliefs mind you, but we must accept that our beliefs are based on stereotypes as most of us have little personal experience in these matter (let alone all three areas) both of these accusations about doping come to us through reports furnished by the news media and we accept them as true (thankfully news media still has some credibility). I don't doubt these reports but that is besides the point as my point was that you seem to accept them based solely on stereotypical truthfulness. Stereotypes are not necessarily bad or inaccurate and we should not assume them to be true or wrong based simply on the fact that they are stereotypes. You assert that people who don't learn about each case yet believe that all the pro are dopers are "intellectually lazy stereotypers" (a stereotype in itself?). I may have overstepped by stating that you blindly accept these stereotypes, however, if you are arguing that word choice this whole threat is pointless and I give up.

You were trying to form a complete sentence here, I know. I'll give you a -C- for effort.
Forgot a pronoun, oops (it). No excuses. If we are assigning points for grammar then you win (except "stereotyper" isn't a word, nor are triple question marks grammatically correct).

The subject of being found innocent(or guilty for that matter) was not even brought up in my post. Are you just rambling here or did you want to make a point about something?
Originally Posted by waltergodefroot
…who have been found innocent of charges…
Do I need to write more or are your own words enough to show that I wasn't rambling.


What a pathetic use of sarcasm—the rolling of eyes usually wins arguments, right?

It seems as if your whole point is telling us how to be fans (we wouldn't want to be the "intellectually lazy" fans you describe). Again, this thread is pointless as you are lecturing us on how to be fans in the form of a question.
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Old 07-02-06, 08:03 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
How much worse of an argument can you make? (Please don't try to craft a worse one) Your base argument is flawed because there are, of course, other options and you offer only two [false dichotomy]. Additionally, your use of specific words to produce specific emotional responses is dishonest (intellectually lazy?)[Poising the well].
Yep. Good article about false dichotomies and dual-valued orientation vs. multi-valued orientation here:

How to Stupidize People
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Old 07-02-06, 08:09 PM
  #24  
waltergodefroot
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Originally Posted by Trevor98
It seems as if your whole point is telling us how to be fans (we wouldn't want to be the "intellectually lazy" fans you describe). Again, this thread is pointless as you are lecturing us on how to be fans in the form of a question.
My point is not to tell you how to be fans, but to ask you what type of fans you want to be. And yes, I am lecturing you. My post is meant as a slap in the face to fans who engage in this mindless stereotyping. You are the people who need to be representing this sport to the public now at a time when it needs positive representation the most. Wake up! If you go around saying, well, all cyclists dope, when that is an irrational position, the general public will accept that assertion. Is that what you want?

I have been through more doping scandals than most of you have been through diapers, and I know some things for sure and that is that most of you have been through lots of diapers if one doping scandal can cause you to turn on your sport and accuse all it's members of unethical behavior. If you follow the leaders in this, and you know who they are, you deserve to become jaded and lose your joy in this sport.
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Old 07-02-06, 08:36 PM
  #25  
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I've been a hardcore fan of Euro bike racing since the mid 80's, maybe not as long as you but long enough. I didn't just wake up after this affair to the realization that dope has a long history in the sport of cycling. I've read enough of the history to know that riders have used all sorts of means to increase their performance. But as one example is the interview that Saiz gave to CycleSport a few months back. He was asked if he felt that it was the teams responsibility to make sure that the riders didn't dope. He catagorically said that the teams should not be held responsible for a riders actions. That he could not keep track of what a rider does in the off season or when they were out of sight. How convenient since he was the supplier of the drugs. I think any reasonable person could assume that Mr Saiz isn't the only DS helping his riders get an edge. This and the other riders who have spoken up about the rampant doping in the sport should be enough to at least make one skeptical.
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