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Phonak confirms Landis positive

Old 07-27-06, 09:27 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by ZachS
How will the "B" sample show the source of the additional testosterone any differently than the "A" sample?

I give Floyd the benefit of the doubt on this one, but I think he may be f***ed either way - it seems that he already is in the court of public opinion.

It won't assuming the first positive result was legit.. If the B is negative, then there was obviously a mistake made in the results.. This is why they independently test 2 samples.
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Old 07-27-06, 09:41 AM
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Hamilton, Heras, and Landis......all of Lances men are falling down.....
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Old 07-27-06, 09:42 AM
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Lets be honest here: all pro-cyclists take drugs. Even if Phonak and Landis can concoct some story about his testosterone levels being hightened by his cortisone shoots, its all B.S. --excuse my French.
If we think that most riders in the TDF are not doping we are kidding ourselves.
Most riders do not test positive only because they get around the tests (shout out to Lance here). Period. Pro Cycling is a sport that is ravaged by doping; you could not ride the tour without drugs. This not me speaking here, but Jacques Anquetil -- one of the few cycling greats who was honest about the whole issue.
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Old 07-27-06, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
Lets be honest here: all pro-cyclists take drugs.
Prove it.
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Old 07-27-06, 09:46 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Hipcycler
If B sample is the same, do they take away his title then?
YES. And ban him from cycling for three years.
 
Old 07-27-06, 09:50 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
Lets be honest here: all pro-cyclists take drugs. Even if Phonak and Landis can concoct some story about his testosterone levels being hightened by his cortisone shoots, its all B.S. --excuse my French.
If we think that most riders in the TDF are not doping we are kidding ourselves.
Most riders do not test positive only because they get around the tests (shout out to Lance here). Period. Pro Cycling is a sport that is ravaged by doping; you could not ride the tour without drugs. This not me speaking here, but Jacques Anquetil -- one of the few cycling greats who was honest about the whole issue.
Intellectually, I realize you are probably right. However, I didn't want reality to get in the way of believing the myth of Landis' amazing comeback and historical ride.

I've got a new idea. F**k these guys, and go out and ride my own bike. Forget about European racing, and enjoy my own local races.
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Old 07-27-06, 09:53 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
Prove it.

Oh Boy.

That's the whole point is it not? There are way to get around the tests! The continuation of the sport is predicated upon the fact that the dopers are always a step ahead of the testers. You cannot detect most of what they are taking through test (save for desperation moves like Landis') and the only way you can "prove it" is through criminal investigation like the Spanish one that busted Basso and Ulrich.
And I'll go back Jacques Anquetil, who kenw what he was talking about: you cannot participate in a pro tour without doping --let alone win one.
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Old 07-27-06, 09:59 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
Intellectually, I realize you are probably right. However, I didn't want reality to get in the way of believing the myth of Landis' amazing comeback and historical ride.

I've got a new idea. F**k these guys, and go out and ride my own bike. Forget about European racing, and enjoy my own local races.
I'm witih you here, sometimes I just don't want to believe it...
I like the idea of just enjoying local races! though I think this doping diseasse affects all pro-races, not just European races, to be sure.

And of course lots of other sports (not just baseball, basketball, athletics, football, tennis, boxing, etc, etc....) are affected. Its just that there is particular scrutiny on cycling --for whatever reason. Perhaps thos will eventually mean that cycling will be the first truly clean sport, but I doubt it.
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Old 07-27-06, 09:59 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I've got a new idea. F**k these guys, and go out and ride my own bike. Forget about European racing, and enjoy my own local races.
Ya know, merlin, I'm starting to agree with you. There are some really impressive masters and Cat 1/2/3's I could cheer for here locally...

But then again, I've heard rumors of doping in the 1/2 ranks too, so I think I'd have to set the cut-off at Cat 3.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:02 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Blaireau
... and the only way you can "prove it" is through criminal investigation like the Spanish one that busted Basso and Ulrich.
And Allan Davis, and Joseba Beloki, and Isidro Nozal, and Sergio Paulinho, and Alberto Contador.
But I understand what your saying. You, like Dick Pound, know a doper when you see one and that's all the proof anyone needs. From now on, you will give daily pronouncements of who will be allowed to compete and who will not. My only question is whether this expertise is limited to cycling or can we count on you to evaluate all athletes?
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Old 07-27-06, 10:06 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by DrPete
Ya know, merlin, I'm starting to agree with you. There are some really impressive masters and Cat 1/2/3's I could cheer for here locally...

But then again, I've heard rumors of doping in the 1/2 ranks too, so I think I'd have to set the cut-off at Cat 3.
I personally do not believe that all pros or even that most pros dope.

I just upgraded from Cat 3 to Cat 2, so I'll be racing with local pros soon. If they all beat me, then they must be doping.

Of course, if I do well, then people will accuse me of doping, a guy who can't even afford to upgrade from Ultegra to Dura Ace.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:09 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper
Hmm you know what just hit me? Who remembers the news from a day or two ago? Floyd's coach was "shockingly" fired from his position with Toyota United.

Related?
Frankie Andrea was fired from Toyota United because of his committments to OLN and elsewhere from what I understand. I don't believe Frankie Andrea has any connection to Flandis other than interviewing him after stages for OLN.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:09 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by BryE
Can anyone say what immediate effects testosterone has on a human? I was under the impression that the effects of testosterone were long-term, mainly used for building muscle mass. Does it have any immediate performance-enhancing effects?
No, I seriously doubt Floyd 'shot up' the night before Stage 17 in an effort to boost his next day's performance-- testosterone promotes protein synthesis in those tissues which have androgen receptors (among many other things). Immediate effects are (to my knowledge) almost nil.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:13 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper
Hmm you know what just hit me? Who remembers the news from a day or two ago? Floyd's coach was "shockingly" fired from his position with Toyota United.

Related?
Floyd's coach is Robbie Ventura. Frankie Andreu got fired from Toyota United.

Can't it just be true that from the ashes of a disasterous stage was born a phoenix of determination and the will to win? That's from the new online course - How to Write Like Al Trautwig Talks.

Say it ain't so, Floyd.

Gah.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:14 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Grasschopper
Floyd's coach was "shockingly" fired from his position with Toyota United.

Related?

I assume that your referring to Toyota-United sacking Frankie Andreu?? Frankie isn't Floyd's coad. Robbie Ventura is Floyd's coach. Frankie was a reporter for OLN during the tour. Maybe he spiked Floyd's blood samples and that is why Toyota-United canned him. yeah..... that's it.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:16 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
And Allan Davis, and Joseba Beloki, and Isidro Nozal, and Sergio Paulinho, and Alberto Contador.
But I understand what your saying. You, like Dick Pound, know a doper when you see one and that's all the proof anyone needs. From now on, you will give daily pronouncements of who will be allowed to compete and who will not. My only question is whether this expertise is limited to cycling or can we count on you to evaluate all athletes?
Thanks for the sarcastic character assassination dude
The point here is that the tests are not really adequate and that Beloki, Ullrich and others would likely have passed the tests with flying colors had it not been for that investigation. Does that tell you something about the validity of tests?
Some serious and prestigious retired riders will tell you: you cannnot ride the tour without taking illegal drugs. Jacques Anquetil 5 time tour winner said so. I bet you any ex-pro, in an off the record conversation admits as much. Does that make them all Dick Pounds?
And by the way, there is no expertise associated with realizing that testing is currently not up to par and that riding the tour necessitates illegal drugs; just common sense.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:16 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
I've got a new idea. F**k these guys, and go out and ride my own bike. Forget about European racing, and enjoy my own local races.
Yep. That's what I concluded when they banned Basso and Ullrich.

I have known two exceptional racers in the last 20 years who have gone to Europe. Both quit the sport dejected at the expectation of doping at the pro ranks. It is engrained in the cycling culture at that level, both in Europe and the US. If done right, it is not detectable. Even riders like Millar who got caught and admitted to EPO use never tested postive.
Landis got desperate and tried to push it. The pressure is incredible at that level, especially when all others are doing it.

Make a list of the top riders in the last decade or so with 'exceptional' performances:

Hamilton
Simoni
Heras
Ullrich
Millar
Pantani
Grewal

All confirmed dopers (OP was the second time for Ullrich).

PS: one documented potential complication from excessive anabolic steroid use is testicular cancer.
 
Old 07-27-06, 10:17 AM
  #43  
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It doesn't matter guys. Now that this story has come out, no matter what the B sample says, there will always be doubt about the "legitimacy" of Floyd's amazing ride. It's over folks. It was fun for the couple of days it lasted. Remember that feeling? We'll never get that back.

I guess I can finally delete Stage 17 from my DVR.

Honestly though...is anyone really surprised?? I think most of us just kind of feel like, "why did he get caught! Everyone else got the crap together...why did he miss the details!"
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Old 07-27-06, 10:21 AM
  #44  
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Let's hang Floyd as soon as possible. Today would be fine. It will take waaay too long to get the "B" sample tested, to hear from Floyd and his doctors, to have hearings and appeals.

Facts and evidence always slow up the swift administration of justice. So, let's hang Floyd today. I got nothing on my calendar between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m. Who has some rope?

By the way, in talking with lab technicians about how tests are done, I was told that most tests for substances that naturally occur in the body are not "positive" or "negative". Every adult human, male and female, has testosterone in their body. Sadly, most of the guys who were born during the Truman administration don't have nearly as high a level as they did forty years ago, which may explain my recent interest in ballet and opera.

So, the issue is not whether Landis had testosterone in his body. Of course he did. The issue is whether a TRUSTWORTHY lab test, verified by a second trustworthy lab test, indicates a level that clearly exceeds any level that could naturally occur in a 30 year old man. The "average" range in 30 year old men varies substantially, and varies for each individual as well.

It is possible, even probable, that when both the "A" sample and "B" sample have been tested, and the test results reviewed by independent experts (and the folks at the French sports institute are NOT "independent" experts) that some experts may disagree with others about what the levels in the tests actually mean...are they "normal", "high normal", "low aberrational", or "more testosterone than an NLF locker room full of offensive linemen"...
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Old 07-27-06, 10:24 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Bockman
No, I seriously doubt Floyd 'shot up' the night before Stage 17 in an effort to boost his next day's performance-- testosterone promotes protein synthesis in those tissues which have androgen receptors (among many other things). Immediate effects are (to my knowledge) almost nil.
There are many hormonal effects of testosterone and other steroid-like compounds. Testosterone is well know to help recovery after exhaustion and intense muscle strain. While its primary action is on nuclear hormone receptors (the androgen receptor), it has many secondary effects and a potent anti-inflammatory, more potent that cortico steroids, but it is not used for this clinically because of the effects on androgen receptor and the long-term risk of testicular cancer.

Sorry, I'd like to beleive, but heroic efforts in cycling like what Landis did have always been tied to doping. Landis reminded me of Pantani that day.
 
Old 07-27-06, 10:24 AM
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Testosterone can also be used as a masking agent.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DocRay
Yep. That's what I concluded when they banned Basso and Ullrich.

I have known two exceptional racers in the last 20 years who have gone to Europe. Both quit the sport dejected at the expectation of doping at the pro ranks. It is engrained in the cycling culture at that level, both in Europe and the US. If done right, it is not detectable. Even riders like Millar who got caught and admitted to EPO use never tested postive.
Landis got desperate and tried to push it. The pressure is incredible at that level, especially when all others are doing it.

Make a list of the top riders in the last decade or so with 'exceptional' performances:

Hamilton
Simoni
Heras
Ullrich
Millar
Pantani
Grewal

All confirmed dopers (OP was the second time for Ullrich).

PS: one documented potential complication from excessive anabolic steroid use is testicular cancer.
Let's get Basso's ET Giro performance on there too
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Old 07-27-06, 10:39 AM
  #48  
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Its just that there is particular scrutiny on cycling --for whatever reason. Perhaps thos will eventually mean that cycling will be the first truly clean sport, but I doubt it.
I think the scrutiny on cycling comes from the Lance effect and the attention it garners from the punishments cyclists get from getting caught.

Look at pro sports in the USA. We've had congressional hearings over PED's in baseball, football etc... but no real penalties. Could you imagine a 2 year ban for a guy like McGuire or Clemens?

Cycling has taken this problem head on and is imposing severe penalties to those who get caught, and making it very public. I think it's about time someone did.

I hope like hell Flandis didn't do anything wrong. But if he did, screw him.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:42 AM
  #49  
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Let us not forget the French dislike of American riders winning THEIR race. As soon as Floyd won, I had a feeling somehow they would try to discredit his performance. It did not surprise me at all......For me, I will make no assumption of guilt on his part until this all plays out.
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Old 07-27-06, 10:47 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Pizza Man
I personally do not believe that all pros or even that most pros dope.

I just upgraded from Cat 3 to Cat 2, so I'll be racing with local pros soon. If they all beat me, then they must be doping.

Of course, if I do well, then people will accuse me of doping, a guy who can't even afford to upgrade from Ultegra to Dura Ace.
I've already gotten some of that, believe it or not. If you bust your a$$ and improve rapidly, there will be whispers. Of course I'm on the stuff...BLT, HBO, you name it

And yep, there's doping in the local races, as much as there is steroid abuse in high school and college sports. Certainly not as widespread as in the pro ranks, but it's there.

I pretty much assume that a lot of the pro ranks are on a program. It figures that if dope gets you that extra 2-5%, and you're talking about the best athletes in the world, you'd be a bit of an ostrich to figure someone is clean when they are 2-5% better than enhanced athletes over, say, a seven year period (not trolling for the Lance defenders out there, or meaning to insult anyone for their views, but it's a pretty reasonable/logical conclusion). I'm also sure there are some clean riders out there. Stories from Kimmage, Voet et. al. would verify this.

Pizza, congrats on the upgrade. I'm going to sit in the 3's a bit longer, but we'll see about next year.
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