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Open questions to Vinokurtov and successfull new racers over 40 on Training/prep

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Open questions to Vinokurtov and successfull new racers over 40 on Training/prep

Old 08-28-06, 01:37 PM
  #1  
hiromian
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Open questions to Vinokurtov and successfull new racers over 40 on Training/prep

This is an open question to Vinokurtov, Pizza Man and others who have gone from cat 5 to cat 3 or better in one season.

What is your training routine?

What is your nutrition routine (supplements, Glutamine, Protein?)

What is your pre race warm up and how long do you rest before the gun?

What is your pre race and race fuel?

Did you have a base from other sports like mountain biking, delivering pizza?

Any other tips?

Last edited by hiromian; 08-28-06 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 08-28-06, 03:26 PM
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I'm only 35, but I'll tell you what works for me. Assuming I've done a couple months of base miles and feel faily fit...


Training: I try to do 100 miles on the weekend, usually a 40/60 split. Plus 2 other nights a week. 1 of which done at race or near race effort. So I rarely do over 200 miles for the week, but I race exclusively criteriums, and the flatter the better. Most are over in about an hour, so I don't feel the need to ride 300 plus miles of steady tempo a week during the Season.


Nutrition: Sleep, some people need it, some don't I need it. If I get a lot of it, I can hammer all the time. Other than that, no other supplements really. Im a pretty firm believer in if its Over the Counter, its not really good for anything.

Pre Race: I've found that as I get older, I need a longer warm up. Like a big diesel Truck. I will ride for about 20 min or so pre race, and try to just get back to the course in time for the start, I don't like sitting waiting.

Fuel: Pre Race, Ive found that blander and non greasy is better. Cereal, Fruit, pasta,eggs, toast etc... Anything greasy seems to find its way back out, or give me heartburn. During the race, depending on length, a couple of gels maybe... You don't need to eat really in a 45 min crit.

I hold the record for the 100yard Backstroke where I went to highschool
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Old 08-28-06, 04:01 PM
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What is your training routine?

I'm fortunate in that I have a very good coach to set up my training program. Winter it's weights, some trainer, and I back country and downhill ski. I'll throw in some cross country too if I can't get up on the mountain. Spring we start doing base, then add in intervals. This year race season has been race race race, though I'll be a bit more selective for next year. I also swim and dive a little during the season, and try to jump on the mountain bike. Pretty much 7 days a week, all my recovery is active. I really seem to stiffen up if I don't exercise.

And I try to stretch and do core work 3x a week. The core work I have to do otherwise the back goes bad (I broke it in '85)

What is your nutrition routine?

I try to eat healthy, I cook 98% of my food from scratch, lot's of veggies, fish and chicken. I'll mix in pork from time to time and very rarely some beef. Make your own sauces and salad dressing, it's scary what they put in some of that stuff.

My supplement list is pretty simple: multivitamins, calcium, glucosamine (bad knees and ankles), fish and flaxseed oil (the fish oil is pharmacy grade). Glutamine I get in the Endurox. I played around with Optygen type products but didn't see any real benefit.

What is your pre race warm up and how long do you rest before the gun?

I usually get on the bike 40 minutes or so from the start., just pedal around till things feel loose. I'm usually on and off diddling around with stuff and using the restroom a couple of times. 15 or so I'll start ramping up the efforts and HR, I like to get two burners in so I don't tighten up when the lactic starts to build during the race. One or two sprint drills. I try to keep pedalling until they are lining up.

What is your pre race and race fuel?

Pre race breakfast is Denny's pancakes (short stack) and a couple of poached eggs. I'll have some HEED or Gu a bit prior to the race. And coffee. Lots of coffee. During I'll have a flask of Hammer Gel and some crunchy stuff, and some electrolyte tabs, HEED or something like that in one water bottle.

I don't eat during 60 minute crits, I will have a bottle of HEED mixed if it's going to be particularly ugly or if I'm doing multiple races so I stay fueled.

Post it's a bottle of Endurox immediately after.

Did you have a base from other sports like mountain biking, delivering pizza?

Other than a lot of freediving/spearfishing, I wish. Pretty much zero aerobic stuff. A few years ago I was 200 lbs. That pretty much sums up what I was doing. I did race motorcycles pro way back when, but it was roadracing which will work you a little but nothing like MX.

Any other tips?

Find a wife who already knows you're crazy, self absorbed, and OCP. Know that when you go out to train in a snow storm, someone in town started an hour ago because they really want to kick your a$$ this season. Spin fast, at our age those knees go away and don't come back. Learn to crash without breaking bones. Don't be an a$$ and call people names in the heat of battle. Be amsued by folks a lot younger than you are. Be amazed by guys several years your senior. Don't sweat results, you can't help how fast and talented other people might be.

And never, ever, bet that you can beat Pizza up a hill.

Hope this helps.

Vino.
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Old 08-28-06, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by hiromian
This is an open question to Vinokurtov, Pizza Man and others who have gone from cat 5 to cat 3 or better in one season.

What is your training routine?

What is your nutrition routine (supplements, Glutamine, Protein?)

What is your pre race warm up and how long do you rest before the gun?

What is your pre race and race fuel?

Did you have a base from other sports like mountain biking, delivering pizza?

Any other tips?
Training routine when not racing at the weekend:

Monday - off
Tuesday - 2:00-2:30 ride. After a short warm up I join the 1 hour fast group ride in GG Park with a bunch of racers between Cat 2 & Cat 4. We do a 3 mile loop with a gradual climb up one side and we all sprint for the top of the hill each time around. It's not hard to stay with the group, but it can be very hard to win the sprints. Then I cool down and spin easy for another hour.
Wednesday - Spin class 60 minutes (high RPM, low resistance - Zone 1)
Thursday - 2 Hour ride with 5 x 6-8 minute tempo (Zone 3/4) intervals on flat ground or 6 x 6 minute hill repeats (last 100M is over 20% grade)
Friday - 60 min spin class
Saturday - Long ride - 3:30 to 5 hours with lots of climbing.
Sunday - Easy endurance ride 2:00 to 2:30.

I don't stretch or lift weights, but I know I should.

I eat a lot of fruits, vegetables, nuts, bread, rice and Pizza! I usually eat fish 1-2 times a week. I rarely eat meat. The only supplement I take is fish oil.
I usually eat a Clif Builders bar with 20g Protein after almost every workout.

Race warm-up: If it's a long road race of 60 miles or more, I'll just ride around the parking lot or on the course if I can for 15-20 minutes. If it's a crit or a short road race that starts on a hill I'll get on the trainer about 50 min before the race and go easy for 10 minutes then gradually build it up to a pretty good effort over the next 20 minutes, then another 5-10 minutes easy. I take the bike off the trainer about 10 minutes before the start, head to the restroom 1 last time, and head to the line.

Prerace fuel - I usually have yogurt, cereal and a banana for breakfast and drink Cytomax while warming up.

My base comes from years of running (and some from casual mountain biking in college about 15 years ago.)

Other tips?
Try to get plenty of sleep, and take naps when you can (I usually get in naps on the weekend after my rides). Don't drink too much beer. I know it's tough, and you might not think it's worth it, but I love beer as much as anyone and I cut back a lot on in the weeks leading up to big races. After the race though, it's a different story.
Arrive at the race 1:30 before the start so you have time to register, pin your # on etc before warming up.
Also, I agree with Vino about finding an understanding wife!
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Old 08-28-06, 09:53 PM
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nobody asked me but I did go to cat 5 to cat 3 in 14 months, at age 40. I still have a lot to learn, and some weaknesses to work on but my riding style does suit the NYC rolling circuit race thing and out of town stuff with a few moderate climbs.

so...

Training routine: not too scientific but try to do long mileage over the fall & early in the season, then shorter more intensity mid season...race 2x a week including the tuesday night Floyd Bennet series, flat and windy circuit deceptively difficult course - that's the interval session there - then about 90min tempo wed-thurs, 1 hour easy spin day before race, cicuit race on the weekend, off monday. about 8-10 hours including racing. Don't overtrain, and increase mileage gradually. Keep in mind this works for races of 20-45 miles or so. For 50+ this doesn't cut it.

No supplements, personally. Too skeptical of marketing (agree with Smoothie104) and I have a theory that if you eat good stuff your body makes what it needs. Try to eat healthy stuff w/lots of complex carbs, not much meat. Easy on the alcohol but enjoy one after a race, some people say beer is good for recovery.

pre race breakfast, cereal, maybe a banana...Coffee (every morning), plus aspirin to help get your blood flowing and take the edge off of any pain or inflammation which might develop.

minimal base from years of bike commuting in nyc and team sports in high school/college.

there are some really really strong guys as old as their early 50s who race around here...most with 20+ years of experience but not all...
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Old 08-28-06, 10:02 PM
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Couple of questions:

Where do you guys get your Endurox?

Pizzaman - what toppings?
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Old 08-28-06, 10:45 PM
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endurox can be had for cheap at performance sales...
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Old 08-29-06, 08:44 AM
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I'm not 40 but at 36 I'm not far from it. I had three years of mediocre results in the fours from 2002 through 2004 after coming back from multiple broken bones (car crash) that put me in a wheelchair for the better part of 4 months. Then I started riding a lot of fixed gear in January/February 2005. I had a great year last year with 2 wins, about 7 podiums and I won the best area rider in the fours. People were like what the hell did you do? I think my patience and dedication paid off and the fixed gear 'fixed' some of my limiters (strength).

I catted up to three, won my first race there last September and had the points to upgrade to 2 after just eight races with a second win in May. I'm upgrading at the end of the season. I didn't feel that I had the base to compete with those guys yet and want to work with my squad's elite team over the winter to get ready.

Most of my riding is simply commuting 17 miles to work three or four times a week at most, and racing on the weekends, like Smoothie, mostly crits. I got away from the fixed gear a bit in the last six months and my sprinting and strength has clearly suffered. I'm getting back to it now. I will do longer rides from time to time if I'm preparing for one of the three or four road races I do each year. Lately on the weekends when I'm not racing I tow my 2 year old around in a Burley Solo on my cross bike. I'm about to start taking him to day care in that rig two or three days a week and then riding the rest of the way to work. That will be 45 minutes pulling him plus about 2 hours besides.

I eat a lot of pizza but it is mostly homemade or from a restaurant famous here for their bread. I eat a good amount of veggies and salad. I probably eat too much red meat and I'm trying to focus more on chicken and fish. But I try to make it be locally 'grown' and hormone free. I don't really drink unless it is wine with my wife. I take a Centrum multivitamin and eat fish oil and or flax seed oil.

I am not concerned with warmup for flat non technical crits. If they are technical or hilly I do the best I can to get there 1.5 hours early and get warmed up. Ideally I get warmed up and sweaty, but then have time for my HR to get down to under 100 before the start.

I drink gatorade and water while racing. I never eat in crits. I like Cliff Builders bars too for post-race/ride.

My best advice to place well in races is to learn to finish well. That means you better be able to jam when above threshold and sprint. And riders who take the initiative usually place well, while those who mark those who take the initiative often win.
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Old 08-29-06, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Panic
Couple of questions:

Where do you guys get your Endurox?

Pizzaman - what toppings?
smartbody nutrition has endurox and accelerade pretty cheap online... shipping was reasonably quick too. Much cheaper than Performance, etc.

www.smartbodynutrition.com
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Old 08-29-06, 09:46 AM
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flythebike,

what pizza shop are you talking about?
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Old 08-29-06, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by flythebike
I probably eat too much red meat and I'm trying to focus more on chicken and fish. But I try to make it be locally 'grown' and hormone free.
FYI all chicken commercially sold in the us is hormone free and controlled by the fda.
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Old 08-29-06, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by riskus
flythebike,

what pizza shop are you talking about?
Yeah - what pizza place is it? I'm guessing Generous George's or Armand's in Old Town Alexandria.
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Old 08-29-06, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by riskus
flythebike,

what pizza shop are you talking about?
Breadline. I mean they are far more than a Pizza shop, but they happen to do Pizza really well. 1753 Penn, NW, WDC. When I took the Fixed Gear Gallery guy out to lunch when he was in town, I took him there... and we shared fries too But they are real fries that would actually degrade in a week, not like the three months it takes chain fries (see that Morgan Spurlock movie?).
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Old 08-29-06, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jrennie
FYI all chicken commercially sold in the us is hormone free and controlled by the fda.
I meant I buy meat in farmers markets when I can. And I meant beef. But that is good to know about chicken....
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Old 08-29-06, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SaddleBags
Yeah - what pizza place is it? I'm guessing Generous George's or Armand's in Old Town Alexandria.
Those are both good places too. I don't get the chance to go to Armand's much anymore but that is a pretty healthy pizza they serve there - aside from all the cheese. Generous Georges - I'll have to take me son there when he gets a little bigger. More of a kids place in my book but still a good pie there - their gimmick is to serve a bunch of pasta on top of their pizzas. And yeah they give you a ton of food.

The nice thing about the Breadline pizza is that it is like a big hunk of pizza crust sort of like a Bobli only freshly baked each day. Then they throw it on the grill and warm it up. Then they put some sauce (pesto or tomato) on it. Then top it - the do sausage or a veggie with like zucchni and peppers, and some squash, or seasonal like now there is a tomato pizza, then they sprinkle some fresh parmesan cheese on it. So it isn't like eating this gut-load of cheese. More like it is a bunch of good carbs and some veggies (I very very very rarely have the sausage). Great pre race food a day or two before. Or in between 17 mile commutes.
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Old 08-29-06, 12:34 PM
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Another question:

How big are you guys?

I'm 5'11" - 230. I want to lose 40 lbs before next season and try my luck at racing. I need a lot more work to get there, and eating right is going to be fundamental. The problem is I'm originally from New Orleans, where we live to eat, and moved to Connecticut - with its 7,000 indy pizza places, and I want to try them all
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Old 08-29-06, 12:43 PM
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Thanks everyone for the well thought out responses. There is allot of good info here for sure. I'm glad you all responded and appreciate the time you put in to posting back. I will print this thread out for reference and devise my own plan/routine.

I can easily incorporate some suggested nutrition tips into my routine. As far as training on the weekend and after work is concerned…I have a totally non-understanding wife which is my biggest hurdle.

As far as divorcing my wife so I can race better: Let me think about that.
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Old 08-29-06, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Panic
Another question:

How big are you guys?

I'm 5'11" - 230. I want to lose 40 lbs before next season ...
I started riding 2yrs ago (5'11" - 215lbs). After 3 months of riding and being very disciplined with my diet I was down to 185lbs. It can be done.
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Old 08-29-06, 01:18 PM
  #19  
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I'm 6' 185 but I should be about 10-15 pounds lighter. I'm hoping to work on that this winter because if I can just survive until the sprint in road races then it is my can of whoop ass to open.
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Old 08-29-06, 03:02 PM
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The italian store in arlington has the best pizza in the area in my opinion. I too prefer to make my own from scratch though.
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Old 08-29-06, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by riskus
The italian store in arlington has the best pizza in the area in my opinion.
I don't know about their pizza, but Gawd! do I miss their subs! I haven't lived in the DC area for almost 10 years but the Milano (I think it's called) was the best Italian sub!
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Old 08-30-06, 01:27 PM
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General:

I only rode 7 races this year, 2 as cat 5 (the second was a Cat 4/5 combined RR that I won, then catted up to 4), and 5 races as Cat 4 (3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, and 4th placings) which was enough to move up to Cat 3. I haven't raced Cat 3 yet, and unfortunately, I don't think I will until next spring. I'm not a climber, and I am not a sprinter, but I can out climb the sprinters and outsprint the climbers. So, my best races were when I could just keep up with the climbers on the hills (not mountains, but hills), then outsprint most of them for the finish. I'm 6'1" and about 168 lbs.


I went from Cat 5 to 3 this year, but it wasn't my first year racing. I raced for 3 years when I was 14-17 yrs old. I did pretty well, until I did a national championship race and national level stage race - I got my butt kicked in those. I was racing with Cat 2 fields in smaller races when I was 17 and keeping up just fine. That was 21 years ago (now I am 38). Since then, I did a few Mtn. bike races, some mountaineering and rock climbing and some running, but nothing competitive. I did almost no bike riding for about 10 years, then last year started riding a little bit and did a century tour. This was my first year back racing a bike.
Training:
I rode through the winter with only a couple weeks off the bike, since I didn't race or train hard last year. I started adding intensity to the hard rides in January and ramped it up into April when my race season started.
During the season here is what I did:
2 hard mid-week group rides about 1 1/2 hours - Tuesday is pretty flat with a hard paceline, a lot of attacking/breakaways and a race-like sprint finish, Thursday has 3 or so hard hills and regrouping at the top, moderately hard between the "races" up the hills.
During the weekend I usually could sneak in a 1 1/2 hour ride and I did long intervals early in the season (10-20 min), and short hill intervals (2min. long) or sprints during the season.
Usually I got in 2 short recovery rides during the week on Monday, Wed or Friday
Overall I rode 400-500 miles/month (about 100/week). Less than I'd like to, but it is all the time I had. The biggest drawback to my training, in my opinion was the lack of long rides, especially in the spring. But, with 2 young kids and work, I couldn't get any in. My longest rides by far were the road races I did at around 50 miles. The best thing about my training is the competitive group rides. Not only can I push myself really hard, but by riding in the group I learn how to attack hard, how long I can stay off the front of a chasing group, how to position for a sprint, when to start a sprint, how to use crosswinds to put the hurt on others and just generally how to handle a bike.

Nutrition:
I generally try to eat healthy, lowish on fat and low on sugar except for just before, during or recovery from hard rides. I eat a lot of pasta and stir frys. I don't pay too much attention to my food - to paraphrase Floyd - I don't weigh my food, I eat it. I drink beer and wine regularly but not on the night before a race.

I take a daily multivitamin and on days with really hard rides, I take a Trader Joe's AntiOxidant vitamin as well. No other supplements.

I ate mostly non-greasy foods before races - cereal, bananas, cliff bars, PB&J sandwich. During the road races (42-56 miles long) I ate 1/2 a cliff bar and 1 or 2 gus, Cytomax in one bottle, water or dilute cyto in the other. For the short races, a gu just before the start and Cytomax in my water bottle.

After workouts I sometimes have an Accelerade bottle or chocolate milk, but usually I just have lunch - which can be anything - turkey sandwich, teriyaki chicken bowl, burrito, whatever.

Pre-race:

For a Saturday race I'll take Thursday off the bike or do a very, very easy ride. Friday I'll do a moderate 1 hour ride with a couple jumps or sprints to open things up. I do a pretty short warm up for road races, about 15 min. of spinning lightly, then a few 2-3 minute jumps up around LT. For the circuit/crit races I did I put in several more intervals of increasing intensity starting at tempo, up to LT, than 2 intervals about 90 seconds well above LT and a sprint or 2.

Other tips:

Group rides are the best workout and learning experiences and they are fun. Save the really structured training routines for a few years down the road.

Have fun and keep things in perspective. Unless you are starting young and have a ton of talent, this is only a hobby. So, other things (like family or school) should come first, and if it stops being fun, take a little time off.

cmh
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Old 08-30-06, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Panic
The problem is I'm originally from New Orleans, where we live to eat, and moved to Connecticut - with its 7,000 indy pizza places, and I want to try them all
not sure where you are in CT, but there's realy only 3 places to have pizza in CT - and they also happen to be the best 3 in the entire US of effin' A - Pepi's, Sally's, and the Spot.

New Haven Pizza baby, that's the only way to go if you're eatin' pizza in the US.
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