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Latest Landis wrinkle....

Old 09-09-06, 06:50 PM
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Latest Landis wrinkle....

http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news;_ylt...v=ap&type=lgns

The plot thickens...
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Old 09-09-06, 06:53 PM
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So when all of the random scientific theories didn't work out, we fall back on the good old "The lab screwed me" excuse....

Yawn...
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Old 09-09-06, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DrPete
So when all of the random scientific theories didn't work out, we fall back on the good old "The lab screwed me" excuse....

Yawn...
There actually isn't anything approaching enough evidence here to ascertain Floyd's innocence or guilt based on what's been released in the media. But that's the nature of leaking stories to the world press in the way this matter was handled by the French lab and Tour officials. But I'm wondering if maybe they didn't understand that better than anyone when they did it. The tendency for most who hear an athlete tested 'positive' to immediately assume guilt is a foregone conclusion. When you combine Landis' relative cluelessness in handling this with the saavy of the French - ay carramba.

Le Duh.

I'd wait and see how this all plays out before you stick a fork in Mr. Landis. I get the feeling this one's not over yet.

And in the meantime pro cycling and the Tour de France simply twist in the wind. Oh well. Mabye they're not quite as saavy as they think they are @ the Tour de France and the UCI.
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Old 09-09-06, 07:21 PM
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Wasn't it Phonak who released Floyd's name prematurely?

Anyway, I don't know if Floyd is guilty or innocent either, and what's been released in the media is clearly insufficient to make any real decision. It just seems a little suspect when they're throwing out all these possible reasons for the result, then after all those are exhausted take the "we got screwed by the lab" angle. It may be true, it just doesn't look good for Floyd either way.
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Old 09-09-06, 07:25 PM
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I hear you Dr. P. This really doesn't make sense - unless as my friend the former steroid using weightlifter (who knows something about this sort of thing) told me:

'sure it makes sense. Floyd's masking agent failed for one day.'

Fair enough in the world of utter speculation we're all immersed in here I suppse. Let's see how this all plays out.
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Old 09-09-06, 07:51 PM
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He's innocent I tell you, innocent.
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Old 09-09-06, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by TCR
He's innocent I tell you, innocent.

Nobody hopes you're right more than me TCR...
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Old 09-09-06, 08:32 PM
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Synthetic goodies in his tests? If the glove dont fit, you must aquit. Keep em'confused and surely they will have doubt. Lawyers are highely paid spin doctors. After a while, even OJ thought he was innocent. Floyd will never fess.....per the lawyer's coaching.
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Old 09-09-06, 09:17 PM
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If i was ever desperate enough to take drugs and got caught i'd be a man and fess up, but, if i was clean and just being bumbarded by incomplete BS from every angle i'd probably react exactly as floyd is.

Reminds me of when i'd get accused of doing something in grade school and everyone really thought i'd done it, i would track down the real person responsible and "convince them"-beat the snot out of them, until they cleared things up.... Trouble is landis can't beat up a handfull of nation's. But his lawyer's going to try
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Old 09-09-06, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by jqnj
Synthetic goodies in his tests? If the glove dont fit, you must aquit. Keep em'confused and surely they will have doubt. Lawyers are highely paid spin doctors. After a while, even OJ thought he was innocent. Floyd will never fess.....per the lawyer's coaching.
Please help me ghost of johnnie cochran
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Old 09-09-06, 10:33 PM
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I think Floyd is a great athlete and a tenacious guy and I hope he gets off...err is proved innocent. But even if he is he will be seen as having gotten away with it by many - the damage is done.

I'm just glad something is finally happening again to move this thing along.

Why doesn't he go and get his hip replaced already?
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Old 09-10-06, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by flythebike
I think Floyd is a great athlete and a tenacious guy and I hope he gets off...err is proved innocent. But even if he is he will be seen as having gotten away with it by many - the damage is done.

I'm just glad something is finally happening again to move this thing along.

Why doesn't he go and get his hip replaced already?
Then he'll be accused of having a synthetic hip.
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Old 09-10-06, 02:10 AM
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Thats a real news flash. Landis's lawyer wants the drug charges against him dropped. Never would have seen that coming.
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Old 09-10-06, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by aussie troy
Thats a real news flash. Landis's lawyer wants the drug charges against him dropped. Never would have seen that coming.

They call that 'mounting a defense' in legal circles. Just so you know.

Innocent and guilty defendants all do it. And that's called 'due process'. How this process plays out - I guess we'll find out soon enough.
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Old 09-10-06, 05:37 AM
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I had a look at Floyd's power numbers from training...and his numbers from stage 17.

He didn't do anything he had not done a million times before. In other words, his perfromance tracks right on with his long documented power numbers. What's funny is since Floyd does power training camps for Cycleops, his numbers are out there.

I think those numbers were recently published in Bicycling Magazine.

Maybe Dr. Pete will disagree, but my family doc is a state ranked triathlete. Been practicing medicine for a long time...he knows of no synthetic form of testosterone that goes away in one day. He also told me that for Landis' T/E ratio to go from 11:1 to under 4:1 in 24 hours...well, he's pretty much looking at that askance, as well.

Now they have to prove it.

But the Marion Jones deal got everyone's attention I know...
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Old 09-10-06, 05:43 AM
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I don't know enough about the pharmacokinetics of testosterone to say for sure, but remember that it's the ratio they're testing, not the presence of exogenous testosterone. So a big spike in the T:E ratio might just mean that the body hasn't started degrading it yet, at least not to enough of an extent to make the ratio normal.

But like I said, I'm absolutely no expert in that realm, so who knows.
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Old 09-10-06, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by DrPete
I don't know enough about the pharmacokinetics of testosterone to say for sure, but remember that it's the ratio they're testing, not the presence of exogenous testosterone. So a big spike in the T:E ratio might just mean that the body hasn't started degrading it yet, at least not to enough of an extent to make the ratio normal.

But like I said, I'm absolutely no expert in that realm, so who knows.
I talked to a good friend of mine who works at LLNL and who has done some testing similar
to what they did on the Landis samples. He has a background in toxicology as well...anyways
he said if he were analyzing this he's have a LOT of questions about testing protocol. He's said
these aren't easy experiments to do and a lot can be left up to interpretation if you are not careful.
He also said that certain things in your diet can affect the results like eating seafood, etc. so it's not
like it's completely cut and dried.
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Old 09-10-06, 09:45 AM
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This whole affair has had a real chilling affect on me. As most of you know I'm in the "they all dope and I don't care" camp. However for some odd reason Floyd's doping has really bothered me, to the point where I've lost almost all interest in pro cycling. Honestly if LA had been popped it wouldn't have even fazed me. Ulrich and Basso's expulsion from the Tour didn't even cause a moments hesitation on my part. But Floyd struck a nerve and I haven't recovered. I truly have lost the will to care.
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Old 09-10-06, 09:47 AM
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Testosterone..............

Let me begin by saying that I am not a doctor and have no medical training or background.........but have taken testosterone at various times for health reasons. Hypogonadism.

There is a way that both sides in this argument can be right. I was offered testosterone in one of three forms, an iv shot, a patch, or a cream. I'm not saying that it's likely but it would be possible for a trainer to apply testosterone to a rider as they were getting a rubdown. The rider would just think it was whatever lotion the trainer usually used. For me the effects showed up in a few hours and were wonderfu.

This does sound like a plot from a really bad movie but it would be possible.

In the end there are no winners here but the sport might be better in the long run.
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Old 09-10-06, 11:44 AM
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But that's the nature of leaking stories to the world press in the way this matter was handled by the French lab and Tour officials.
If the lab and the Tour officials annouce it, it's not a 'leak', it's an 'annoucement'

I had a look at Floyd's power numbers from training...and his numbers from stage 17.

He didn't do anything he had not done a million times before. In other words, his perfromance tracks right on with his long documented power numbers. What's funny is since Floyd does power training camps for Cycleops, his numbers are out there.
Doesn't tell us anything about wether he was using testosterone during the tour, does it?

Maybe Dr. Pete will disagree, but my family doc is a state ranked triathlete.
HA HA HA HA HA. STOP THE PRESSES! A random guy's 'family doc' - a 'state ranked triathlete' of all things (!) has an expert opinion! Perhaps Landis' lawyers could call him during any trials or investigations? L.O.L.
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Old 09-10-06, 12:56 PM
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>>If the lab and the Tour officials annouce it, it's not a 'leak', it's an 'annoucement'<<

Whatever. I think it's an intentionally ******bag move on the part of Tour officials. What I'll never understand is how you can release an 'A' sample result without the 'B' confirmation. How about this? Notify the athlete of the positive 'A' result and until the 'B' result confirms it don't involve the media. But they'd rather have kangaroo court conviction by the world press.

And as always, it's not just Floyd twisting in the wind. It's pro cycling. Get a clue Euro.
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Old 09-10-06, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DrPete
Wasn't it Phonak who released Floyd's name prematurely?

Anyway, I don't know if Floyd is guilty or innocent either, and what's been released in the media is clearly insufficient to make any real decision. It just seems a little suspect when they're throwing out all these possible reasons for the result, then after all those are exhausted take the "we got screwed by the lab" angle. It may be true, it just doesn't look good for Floyd either way.
Phonak released Landis' name after the media (L'equipe) was poking around for comments about his questionable test results. Leblanc had already heavily hinted the previous day that "Someone" had tested positive and his wording left little doubt that it was Landis (unless it was Leblanc himself). Phonak and Landis felt that they had spin this their way much in the same way they got out in front of the hip surgery issue.
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Old 09-10-06, 03:35 PM
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The Marion Jones track and field incident (where the 'A' sample was positive and the 'B' sample was negative) underscores the folly of leaking any such info to anyone until both tests are conclusive. Now the sport/athlete are under a cloud, the testing appears flawed, track and field's governing officials look like idiots - somebody help me here, what IS the point? WHO is this helping?

Oh, yeah, right, NOBODY.

Getting the doping in cycling under control is a goal worth pursuing. Maybe everyone should sit down and figure out a way to do so in a way that WON'T destroy the popularity and sponsorship of the entire sport FIRST. You think?

That's what this seems to be about, more than Floyd's guilt or innocence. And if all those top cyclists are guilty - and even if Lance was doping - there's obviously a MUCH bigger issue here than Floyd. It's pro cycling and for that matter all of pro sports that is on the chopping block. And society has no choice but to get doping under control. If we don't it's a slippery slope, and EPO/Steroids/Human Growth Hormone and every other illicit substance will inevitably filter down to amateur competition and then our schools.

The last thing we want to read about is high school athletes DYING from the unsupervised use of EPO (they can't afford high priced European sports doctors who know how to administer that stuff in a non-lethal manner). That could be next at this rate...
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Old 09-10-06, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by DrPete

But like I said, I'm absolutely no expert in that realm, so who knows.
Wow, you're the only one on this forum who's not an expert in testosterone all of a sudden, and you're a doctor!
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Old 09-10-06, 03:42 PM
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Guys, follow the story, for god's sake.....

July 27, 2006 - 'UCI (NOT LEBLANC) reports one Tour positive' (anonymous, standard practice)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...ul06/jul27news

July 27, 2006 - 'Speculation catches fire over Tour de France positive'

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul27news2

Apparently, Landis was supposed to have competed in a post-Tour criterium in Chaam in The Netherlands on Wednesday night, but did not race, citing hip problems. He left the hotel at 4:30pm with team manager John Lelangue, and also cancelled a criterium appointment in Denmark for today (Thursday).

His sudden withdrawal surprised race organisers, as it's understood the regular appearance fee at a post-Tour criterium for the reigning yellow jersey is 60,000 euros.
July 27, 2006 - 'Phonak confirms Landis positive'

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?...l06/jul27news3

The Phonak team has confirmed the speculation that Floyd Landis returned a positive A sample after his win in stage 17 of the Tour de France. "The Phonak Cycling Team was notified yesterday by the UCI about an unusual level of Testosterone/Epitestosterone ratio in the test made on Floyd Landis after stage 17 of the Tour de France," said the team in a statement. "The team management and the rider were both totally surprised of this physiological result.
Do I need to make it any more clear?
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