Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Crit with 180 degree turn---advice?

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Crit with 180 degree turn---advice?

Reply

Old 09-15-06, 08:01 AM
  #1  
Bobby Lex
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Crit with 180 degree turn---advice?

Question for all you experienced crit racers. Next week I'm racing a 6-turn crit with a 180 degree corner.

Here's a link to the course map:

http://www.floridacycling.com/Maps/crit_race_map.gif

I'm looking for ideas, comments, thoughts, suggestions, advice. Never done a 180 degree corner in a race before. I would imagine the "never-brake-in-a-corner" rule would not apply in this case. Seems like you'd have to brake hard there.

Do I take that corner inside-out? Outside-in?

Anybody done a crit with a corner like that?

Bob
Bobby Lex is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 08:22 AM
  #2  
curiouskid55
Senior Member
 
curiouskid55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SoCal Baby
Posts: 2,137

Bikes: o5 Specilized roubaix Comp, 06 Tequilo

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Just follow the guy in front of you. Seriously. Dont try to improve your position during the turn.
curiouskid55 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 09:15 AM
  #3  
San Rensho 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,639
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
In general follow Curious' advice.

With no traffic, the fastest way through there is the standard corner strategy, wide on the entry, go to the far inside in the middle of the corner, wide on the exit. But, if the pack is bunched up, stay to the outside during the whole turn because the inside is going to get really, really slow, you'll be able to maintain speed better on the outside.

I'm assuming its not very far from the hairpin to the finish, so the first guy into that corner on the last lap is going to win. If you are #1 going into the corner during the last lap and someone's on yout wheel, then you have to stay to the inside to protect guys from passing you on the inside.

If I were racing this, I would take a flyer right BEFORE the 90 degree right turn at Miami and Nassua, assuming the pack is still together on the last lap. If you make a decisive move and get a gap before you enter the right hander, chances are you won't get chased down if its 4/5 race, and just put your head down, fly through the hairpin, and you're home free.

Looks like a fun course.
__________________
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
San Rensho is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 09:21 AM
  #4  
merlinextraligh
pan y agua
 
merlinextraligh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Jacksonville
Posts: 30,322

Bikes: Wilier Zero 7; Merlin Extralight; Co-Motion Robusta; Schwinn Paramount; Motobecane Phantom Cross; Cervelo P2; Motebecane Ti Fly 29er; Calfee Dragonfly Tandem

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 859 Post(s)
Trouble usually comes from the inside out. So if you're confident in your own handling skills, carving a tight inside line helps you stay out of trouble, and is the short route through the turn
merlinextraligh is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 10:53 AM
  #5  
Snicklefritz
Senior Member
 
Snicklefritz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've never ridden a course like this. However, I did watch a race up in my area where they had a 180 turn just *after* the start/finish line. In some of the races, I watched a good deal of people get shelled out the back because they got caught up in the accordion effect there. It seemed much more amplified compared with a regular turn. In a crit, you don't want to get stuck in the back, and even more so with this type of turn I would think.
Snicklefritz is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 12:04 PM
  #6  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,013

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Dolan PreCursa, Cdale Slice

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
In general you will find that you have to turn in a little harder than you initially think, and a lot of riders will be making mid turn corrections. The outside strategy works well if the exit is relativly wide, otherwise riders misjudging the turn will be pushing out into you at the exit, can get a little dicey.

Especially agree that first into that turn will be top 3 at the line, might be a good course to try something long (>500m).
Voodoo76 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 12:16 PM
  #7  
PedalMasher
214/13
 
PedalMasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: SW Pdx
Posts: 844
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
We had a 3 crit series with 2 180's per lap. I did both in/out lines on the turns and found the outside line was much better as the acceleration after the corner was not nearly as bad. Those who took the inside had a bigger acceleration to make and it wears on you after 15-20 laps.
PedalMasher is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 03:20 PM
  #8  
brianappleby
Senior Member?
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,975

Bikes: orbea onix, Cervelo SLC, Specialzed Allez, Cervelo P3 Alu

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Originally Posted by PedalMasher
We had a 3 crit series with 2 180's per lap. I did both in/out lines on the turns and found the outside line was much better as the acceleration after the corner was not nearly as bad. Those who took the inside had a bigger acceleration to make and it wears on you after 15-20 laps.

Exactly why people need to stop applying car racing (friction circle) rules to bike cornering...
brianappleby is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 08:21 PM
  #9  
tlupfer
...
 
tlupfer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 708
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
go 181 degrees. no one will see it coming and after four laps you will be 4 degrees closer to victory.
tlupfer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 08:23 PM
  #10  
UmneyDurak
RacingBear
 
UmneyDurak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NorCal
Posts: 8,860
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 178 Post(s)
Stay at the front, at the back you will be sprinting to catch up. Be on the outside so you can keep more speed. Inside people will have to slow down more.
UmneyDurak is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-06, 10:29 PM
  #11  
Sage23
It is what it is
 
Sage23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: The Shaw (SE WI)
Posts: 574

Bikes: Trek 1500 and Trek 950

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
What everyone has said thus far is basically true. The question is how wide is the corner apex and how wide is the road? On a narrow apex, and narrow road (think a two-way street with a set of cones dividing the traffic) the ideal line is to stay outside deep into the corner and then cut back to the apex. This gives you the advantage because you are well into your acceleration while those who take a wide turn will still be working on the turn. If you've got a wider road, or a wide apex (think about the Champs Elysees during the tour) you can take a more traditional route.

This, of course, is theory. In practice, just stick with the pack. For example, in the first situation described above, you won't be able to cut back to the apex because there will be the trailing riders there. Whether you should stay inside or out will depend on your strengths. If you can handle the repeated accelerations, stick to the inside. If you're weaker, stick to the outside and try to carry as much speed as you can.
Sage23 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-06, 12:25 AM
  #12  
urbanknight
In beaurocratic limbo
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 22,456

Bikes: Specialized Allez, K2 Razorback

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Originally Posted by UmneyDurak
Stay at the front, at the back you will be sprinting to catch up. Be on the outside so you can keep more speed. Inside people will have to slow down more.
+1 With 180 degree corners, people in the back will be sprinting even harder to catch up.
urbanknight is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-06, 08:05 AM
  #13  
classic1
Senior Member
 
classic1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,020
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
First things first. Its a technical course. Get on the front row at the start - even if it means getting to the start 10 minutes early, then stay as close to the front as possible. Like some of the others said, you don't want to be on the back when the group stretches out of the hairpin corner. Someone loses the wheel mid pack and its likely race over for everyone behind.

It looks to be a short sprint out of the last corner. At the finish first or second rider into the final corner will win guaranteed. Take a flyer if you are too far back coming to the last 90degree corner.
classic1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-06, 08:26 AM
  #14  
nitropowered
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Athens, Ohio
Posts: 5,104

Bikes: Custom Custom Custom

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
180's are fun. You can gain (or lose) a lot of places. I like going hard into the inside line and sprinting out and gain a couple of spots.
nitropowered is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-06, 11:01 AM
  #15  
bassplayinbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 658

Bikes: Diamondback centurion. Home built tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
get to the turn first.

I guarantee someone is gonna attack the turn each lap.
bassplayinbiker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-06, 06:07 AM
  #16  
Bobby Lex
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,616
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
UPDATE:

Did the race yesterday. That corner was stupid!

Got caught out behind two crashes in that corner. The first time I was third going through the turn. The #1 guy went down. The #2 guy hit him and went down, too. I was #3 through the turn and managed to avoid the bodies, but had to almost come to a complete stop and so worked like hell to bridge back up to the group which decided to attack at that point.

Couple of laps later I'm going through that turn in the #2 position when the #1 guy goes down. Again, I have to come to almost a complete stop to avoid going down, too. Again the group decides to attack. This time I get gapped and can't close it. Rode the group behind me off my wheel. But just couldn't close on the 10 guys in front of me. Raced about 10 laps in no-man's-land about 200 yards behind the lead group and 200 yards ahead of the following group. Finished 11th out of 36.

Crappy corner.

Crappy racers deliberately attacking when there's a crash....

Thanks for the advice and comments.

Bob
Bobby Lex is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-06, 08:01 AM
  #17  
EventServices
Announcer
 
EventServices's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Detroit's North Side.
Posts: 5,083

Bikes: Many

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Hate the game, not the corner.
That's bike racing.

There will be a lot of Crit-scared riders who will point to your debrief notes as a reason to never ride Crits.
Pity.
They're fun.

I always go around the outside, keep it in a smaller gear, get ready to blast out of it.
And if a crash goes down in front of me, I know it's always going to be slow. I'll topple over, loosen my front skewer and go take a free lap. Just like Mike Walden taught me.

Last edited by EventServices; 09-24-06 at 08:08 AM.
EventServices is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-06, 11:45 AM
  #18  
San Rensho 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,639
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 125 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Bobby Lex
UPDATE:

Did the race yesterday. That corner was stupid!

Got caught out behind two crashes in that corner. The first time I was third going through the turn. The #1 guy went down. The #2 guy hit him and went down, too. I was #3 through the turn and managed to avoid the bodies, but had to almost come to a complete stop and so worked like hell to bridge back up to the group which decided to attack at that point.

Couple of laps later I'm going through that turn in the #2 position when the #1 guy goes down. Again, I have to come to almost a complete stop to avoid going down, too. Again the group decides to attack. This time I get gapped and can't close it. Rode the group behind me off my wheel. But just couldn't close on the 10 guys in front of me. Raced about 10 laps in no-man's-land about 200 yards behind the lead group and 200 yards ahead of the following group. Finished 11th out of 36.

Crappy corner.

Crappy racers deliberately attacking when there's a crash....

Thanks for the advice and comments.

Bob
Sounds like you did awesome, despite the adversity. Dropping a group and staying out in no man's land is quite a feat.

Don't take the groups attack personally, thats what they do for a living. They love to attack after crashes, or right when they catch a break, to twist the knife.

In criteriums its give no quarter, take no quarter. Thats just the rules of the race.
__________________
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
San Rensho is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-06, 10:56 PM
  #19  
DannoXYZ 
Senior Member
 
DannoXYZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 11,739
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 101 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Bobby Lex
UPDATE:

Did the race yesterday. That corner was stupid!

Got caught out behind two crashes in that corner. The first time I was third going through the turn. The #1 guy went down. The #2 guy hit him and went down, too. I was #3 through the turn and managed to avoid the bodies, but had to almost come to a complete stop and so worked like hell to bridge back up to the group which decided to attack at that point.

Couple of laps later I'm going through that turn in the #2 position when the #1 guy goes down. Again, I have to come to almost a complete stop to avoid going down, too. Again the group decides to attack. This time I get gapped and can't close it. Rode the group behind me off my wheel. But just couldn't close on the 10 guys in front of me. Raced about 10 laps in no-man's-land about 200 yards behind the lead group and 200 yards ahead of the following group. Finished 11th out of 36.

Crappy corner.

Crappy racers deliberately attacking when there's a crash....

Thanks for the advice and comments.

Bob
Hey, you did fine! It's a learning thing, eh? Anyway, in bike-racing, the territory you need to map is not the course, it's the other riders. Learning to deal with the other guys is +90% of the game. One of the things I always do is look at the 3 guys that win the race and see what attributes they had that I could've spotted from the beginning of the race so that I could be on their wheel the next time. They put out different vibes than the guys who crashed in front of you. The key to success in bike-racing is learning to read the other riders. That's why I always wore one one solid and one argyle sock... Good luck!
DannoXYZ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-06, 07:18 AM
  #20  
Voodoo76
Blast from the Past
 
Voodoo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Schertz TX
Posts: 3,013

Bikes: Ridley Excal, CAAD10, Dolan PreCursa, Cdale Slice

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 132 Post(s)
Yea San, there were some wise words up there. Free Lesson #1: If you get caught in a pile up (even if you dont go down) ride back to the pit w the crashers, check and change your front wheel, take a deep breath and jump back out into the field. Beats the hell out of trying to chase back on. Funny how well this work and how few riders have the presence of mind to do it.
Voodoo76 is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service