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New Cancellera TT position

Old 02-26-07, 12:43 AM
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Vinokurtov
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New Cancellera TT position

If the World Champion time trial rider completely remakes his position, you have to think there's something to it:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20..._TOC07_stg5019

I used something similar last year and turned in my best 40km time ever. If anyone has any wind tunnel insight or experience, I'd be really interested.
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Old 02-26-07, 01:58 AM
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I think thats the "praying mantis" position first introduced and used by mr landis at the TDC. Now everyone's doing it
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Old 02-26-07, 02:46 AM
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Looks like downhill skier
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Old 02-26-07, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
If anyone has any wind tunnel insight or experience, I'd be really interested.
I think this guy does...
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Old 02-26-07, 06:19 AM
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Isn't this a ToC spoiler? I mean it was only like 3 days ago for the TT and 8 days for the Prologue...what if I didn't watch my DVR and hadn't seen the coverage yet...you have ruined the ToC for me.....
























God I hope people understand that was a joke.
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Old 02-26-07, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DrPete
I think this guy does...
Why would anyone ride like that? I mean 'cmon Mercx didn't...
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Old 02-26-07, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus
Why would anyone ride like that? I mean 'cmon Mercx didn't...
You're right. Praying Mantis is for wussy.
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Old 02-26-07, 07:49 AM
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Looks like his head is a bit farther back than last year.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20...63/sirotti_004

Above is last year's world winning position.


One side of me says why mess with a world winning position? The other side says he probably spent time in a tunnel and found that he decreased a bit of drag by reducing his frontal area in the new position (having the wind roll down his arms more and hit him in the chest less) without power loss.

Or maybe he was just trying out a new position in a low level race (for him) and seeing how it goes.
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Old 02-26-07, 07:54 AM
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My teammate has changed to a similar position and says he's more comfortable. I'm going to try it myself this week on our practice 15k course.

Dr Pete, Prying Mantis only for Wussy if you are not dialing up 400w to drop OMG poseur. Prying Mantis also for Wussy in Base or at the gym
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Old 02-26-07, 11:45 AM
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I have been experimenting with lowering my TT position (to obtain a smaller frontal area) and Have essentially bottomed out with only a few watts lost in power. I am planning on doing a poor man's wind tunnel test on this position (and have been planning it for months so as not to appear to be reacting to the ToC positions) by descending a long grade first at a coast then at speed and trying to determine if it is indeed faster for me. It DEFINITELY gets me lower in the area of the shoulders, but I don't know if thi swill have an effect on my ability to control the bike or have a significant effect on the power output. I will let the BFers know what my opinion is (though right now, I am still thinking that the traditional way will be better for me).
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Old 02-27-07, 08:01 AM
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I don't have any wind tunnel experience - but I have some physiological experience and I wonder about how these riders have gotten around one problem with the praying mantis - how do they keep their pedaling efficiency without using their lower back muscles? Tons of stretching?
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Old 02-27-07, 08:10 AM
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Efficiency is learned when you do a lot of something. You can even be efficient at doing something "bad".

Any change in position would require a time period for adaptation to that position and a building of efficiency BEFORE any judgement can be made as to it's worth. Most people are too impatient to follow that process.
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Old 02-27-07, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by NoRacer
Efficiency is learned when you do a lot of something. You can even be efficient at doing something "bad".

Any change in position would require a time period for adaptation to that position and a building of efficiency BEFORE any judgement can be made as to it's worth. Most people are too impatient to follow that process.
Bingo. Can you say high cadence? Took me an entire winter before I could sit on 90+ RPM efficiently.
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Old 02-27-07, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DrWJODonnell
I have been experimenting with lowering my TT position (to obtain a smaller frontal area) and Have essentially bottomed out with only a few watts lost in power. I am planning on doing a poor man's wind tunnel test on this position (and have been planning it for months so as not to appear to be reacting to the ToC positions) by descending a long grade first at a coast then at speed and trying to determine if it is indeed faster for me. It DEFINITELY gets me lower in the area of the shoulders, but I don't know if thi swill have an effect on my ability to control the bike or have a significant effect on the power output. I will let the BFers know what my opinion is (though right now, I am still thinking that the traditional way will be better for me).
What is the poor man's wind tunnel test?
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Old 02-27-07, 12:07 PM
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real poor man's wind tunnel: coasting down a hill while spinning in a neutral gear (39-25 or something) and seeing how far you make it up the next hill

middle-class wind tunnel: riding at given power output in different positions and see how HR and speed vary
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Old 02-27-07, 12:45 PM
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Landis' position on his TT bike had more to do with making his hip hurt less by moving forward on the saddle and putting more body weight on his forearms. Because he won a lot in that position, everyone started copying it. It had less to do with being aerodynamic.

From an interview in The New York Times: ... some rivals have begun to copy his uniquely painful position on the time-trial bike. "Maybe they should break their hip, and it would work better for them," Landis told me with a smile.

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Old 02-27-07, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Moochers_Dad
Landis' position on his TT bike had more to do with making his hip hurt less by moving forward on the saddle and putting more body weight on his forearms. Because he won a lot in that position, everyone started copying it. It had less to do with being aerodynamic.

From an interview in The New York Times: ... some rivals have begun to copy his uniquely painful position on the time-trial bike. "Maybe they should break their hip, and it would work better for them," Landis told me with a smile.

Interesting theory but the hip/seat/crank/body slant relationship remains virtually the same, and my experience has been that, especially under load, there's actually less pressure on the elbows in this position, because when your really making a big effort, your arms are pulling at the bars and the elbows are barely touching.

It's hard to make the "I'm just copying" argument when the World TT champion who has done extensive wind tunnel testing is using something similar. It's also hard to argue that it isn't at least as aerodynamic or more so, given he had his best TT's using it.

Remember this word: misdirection. If I was a guy who found a position that provided me an advantage I'd want to throw doubt in the folks I'm racing against who might try it. Considering Landis is also quoted as saying the hip didn't ever bother him when he was racing or riding...
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Old 02-27-07, 01:16 PM
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My version of a poor man's wind tunnel: Fixed distance, long hill. Approach the start (top) at 20mph and at start, stop pedaling. Take the time from top to bottom (over the fixed distance) three times and average. Next do the same thing pedalling a fixed wattage (tempo or threshold). Adjust position and repeat. This needs to be done over a long hill as changes aren't likely to be more than a few seconds.

Landis did this for his hip, but there is no denying that the position of the arms levers the elbows lower. When the elbows are lower, the shoulders are lower. When the shoulders are lower, the frontal area is less. The question is: Is the frontal area significantly less, and then at what cost to power? If you are TTing at 22 mph, you don't want to lose power. At 28 mph, it's not the power so much as aero drag.
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Old 02-27-07, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Vinokurtov
Remember this word: misdirection. If I was a guy who found a position that provided me an advantage I'd want to throw doubt in the folks I'm racing against who might try it. Considering Landis is also quoted as saying the hip didn't ever bother him when he was racing or riding...
But if it's someone who works for a company that tries to brand itself as leaders in the field of cycling related aerodynamics, he'd have a lot to lose and not much to gain by weighing in when he was unsure or knew he was wrong. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.c...1032304#726722
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Old 02-27-07, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle
But if it's someone who works for a company that tries to brand itself as leaders in the field of cycling related aerodynamics, he'd have a lot to lose and not much to gain by weighing in when he was unsure or knew he was wrong. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.c...1032304#726722
It's pretty clear that Floyd isn't exactly forthcoming when he says it was just for his hip.

Interesting thread. Great quote from Josh in there:

"I was just in the wind tunnel with him last week, and we were determined to get those bars flat, but for whatever reason this just works for him. I have to say that in the last 6 years I've been to like 20 tunnel tests of both pro and amateur athletes, roadies and triathletes, and this is the only time I've ever seen a bar position like this work for anybody. Just like the manager of the wind tunnel said, 'It wouldn't be a wind tunnel test if we didn't discover something that completely went against everything we thought we knew'..."

I think it's safe to assume Cancellera spent some time in the wind tunnel also, before adopting the position. So what makes Floyd and Fabian able to have low drag numbers in this position and others not? Similar morphology? But they're wholly dissimilar from Braikovic, who's mantis is praying even harder:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/20.../vuelta0614/23

I can't see Johan going "OK, use whatever position makes you happy", pretty safe bet that all the Disco riders have seen the wind tunnel also.

Thing that make you go hmmmm.

And it does make the bike a bit more squirrelly BTW.

Last edited by Vinokurtov; 02-27-07 at 10:51 PM.
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Old 02-27-07, 03:42 PM
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^^^^^

Did UCI rules apply in the ToC or did they have relief from this:

1.3.013
The maximum height of the hand support point shall be level with or below a horizontal line passing through the horizontal plane of the saddle top. This point of support may not be situated behind the axis of the steering column.

The overall length [forward projection] of the handlebars may not exceed a limit set 15 cm forward of a vertical line passing through the front wheel spindle.
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Old 02-27-07, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by NoRacer
^^^^^

Did UCI rules apply in the ToC or did they have relief from this:
Braikovic's pic is from the Vuelta. Maybe they missed that.

Last edited by Vinokurtov; 02-27-07 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 02-27-07, 08:34 PM
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I was readin in a mag the other day that they knew of the "mantis" position years ago -- I still have pictures of Bostick and LeMond using it. Then, as is usually the case, some awesome time-trailer comes along who doesn't like the postion, changes it, then everyone copies. It might've Indurain

ok, this isn't exactly the same, but the bars are definitely pointing upwards



this is Bostick several years ago

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Old 02-27-07, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by NoRacer
^^^^^

Did UCI rules apply in the ToC or did they have relief from this:
I'm pretty sure that's what led to Floyd's TT debacle in Le Tour last year. He had is bars set too high and the UCI guys called him on it, which led to the sloppy repair, which led to the bar failure, which led to the bike change, etc.
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