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Garzelli drafting evidence from Giro stage 14

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Garzelli drafting evidence from Giro stage 14

Old 05-28-07, 04:26 PM
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Garzelli drafting evidence from Giro stage 14

Since the cycling media, especially Versus/Phil Liggett, only provided a glib account of the Garzelli drafting incident, I've put together a sequence of video stills which I can draw the following remarks:

1. There were two motorcycles in-between Garzelli and Simoni and neither one of them should have been there. The media only referred to one motorcycle.
2. Garzelli was close enough to get some draft for 300m before he bridged up to Simoni.
3. Drafting off of the motorcycles and Simoni might have given Garzelli the pop he showed at the end.
4. Despite the poorly positioned motorcycles in this case, RAI's camera work and producing of the end of the race with helicopter shots was outstanding.
5. Football coverage would have been all over this incident with instant replays from different angles. In cycling, we get Phil Liggett saying something like "I don't see a motorcycle problem" when Garzelli came around Simoni at the finish line, 500-900m after these video stills...









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Old 05-28-07, 04:36 PM
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unless you show an over head photo of the same sequence this isnt proof of anything.
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Old 05-28-07, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by riskus
unless you show an over head photo of the same sequence this isnt proof of anything.
There wasn't an overhead shot, but we know there were two motorcycles directly in line with the two riders unnecessarily on a wide road and Garzelli was able to come up from behind and pass the first one. He got some draft that could have been avoided before a close finish. That's my point.
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Old 05-28-07, 04:49 PM
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Sure he might have gotten a little draft but without being able to tell just how close garzelli was to the motorbikes its tough to say that simoni got robbed. maybe he did maybe he didnt. if he comes in second by 7 seconds i might feel bad for him in the end.
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Old 05-28-07, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by riskus
Sure he might have gotten a little draft but without being able to tell just how close garzelli was to the motorbikes its tough to say that simoni got robbed. maybe he did maybe he didnt. if he comes in second by 7 seconds i might feel bad for him in the end.
It is clear that Garzelli was able come up from behind and pass motorcycle #1. Even just 5 or 10 seconds of draft would be enough rest to help launch himself up to Simoni.
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Old 05-28-07, 05:06 PM
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so what if he came around a motorcycle? We cant see how close he was when he came around it. We are looking at a straight on photo of the scene. there is no depth perception.
garzelli could be 50 meters behind the bike when he passes.

personally i dont know if garzelli got a good enough draft to pass simoni. it sures looks it but im just saying what you are showing is inadequate to say for sure.
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Old 05-28-07, 05:23 PM
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I watched it live, and can tell you it definitely looked like Garzelli got a pull from the moto. Simoni ought to be pissed.
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Old 05-28-07, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by riskus
so what if he came around a motorcycle? We cant see how close he was when he came around it. We are looking at a straight on photo of the scene. there is no depth perception.
garzelli could be 50 meters behind the bike when he passes.
I'm aware of the depth perception issue and it's a good rebuttal, but in this case the time lapse between frames #6 and #6b, when Garzelli reappears and moves in front of the motorcycle, is just one second.
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Old 05-28-07, 05:28 PM
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Watching the stage it looked to me like Garzelli clearly got help from the bikes. In light of Sunday's stage I don't think the 8 seconds is going to make much difference. I expected Simoni to be able to make up any time gaps he needed on Monte Zoncolan, now I'm not so sure. I hope Simoni will decide to throw the dice and be willing to give up a podium spot by attacking all-out on Wednesday.
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Old 05-28-07, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by steephill
I'm aware of the depth perception issue and it's a good rebuttal, but in this case the time lapse between frames #6 and #6b, when Garzelli reappears and moves in front of the motorcycle, is less than one second.
That, and the distances involved give one an indication of just how far back he was behind the moto.
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Old 05-28-07, 06:01 PM
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like i said it sure looks like he drafted and really he probably did. i just dont think this evidence is all that good.

it sucks that simoni was denied that stage win but in the grand scheme of things it means very little. I just hope we dont have to hear simoni talking about this years later.
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Old 05-28-07, 06:07 PM
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On a related note, does anyone know the procedural rules that governm motorcycles in UCI races? Clearly they are not supposed to give assistance to riders (intentionally or not) but are there specific distances they are required to maintain? Can a moto operator be sanctioned for breaking the rules?
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Old 05-28-07, 06:40 PM
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I was riding the motorbike and I was pissed he didn't do his turn in front of me.

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Old 05-28-07, 07:23 PM
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What is the deal with those stupid, two front wheel motorcycles, anyways? Looks like someone put a Segway in place of a motorcycles front wheel...
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Old 05-28-07, 11:36 PM
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Awesome work steephill!

The worst thing about it was that it cost Simoni 8 seconds, which can make a big diff. in the race.
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Old 05-29-07, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by steephill
Since the cycling media, especially Versus/Phil Liggett, only provided a glib account of the Garzelli drafting incident, I've put together a sequence of video stills which I can draw the following remarks:

1. There were two motorcycles in-between Garzelli and Simoni and neither one of them should have been there. The media only referred to one motorcycle.
2. Garzelli was close enough to get some draft for 300m before he bridged up to Simoni.
3. Drafting off of the motorcycles and Simoni might have given Garzelli the pop he showed at the end.
4. Despite the poorly positioned motorcycles in this case, RAI's camera work and producing of the end of the race with helicopter shots was outstanding.

5. Football coverage would have been all over this incident with instant replays from different angles. In cycling, we get Phil Liggett saying something like "I don't see a motorcycle problem" when Garzelli came around Simoni at the finish line, 500-900m after these video stills...
it's time for phil to retire. seriously.
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Old 05-29-07, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by botto
it's time for phil to retire. seriously.
Why do you hate old people?
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Old 05-29-07, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by classic1
Why do you hate old people?

They smell funny, and they make horrible food choices.
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Old 05-29-07, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by classic1
Why do you hate old people?
Old people are cool, i.e. The Zimmers, Phil's a fred.
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Old 05-29-07, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by riskus
unless you show an over head photo of the same sequence this isnt proof of anything.
apologist!
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Old 05-29-07, 07:22 AM
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The motos were in Garzelli's line. If he changed his line to avoid the draft it could have cost him time. Would we then here Garzelli at the finish cry'n about it. Maybe.

I get the feeling that if Simoni gets some pee on the toilet ring he blames his wife for not getting a wide enough toilet. He may be correct in context but he should just shut up and except that what goes around comes around.
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Old 05-29-07, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rog
What is the deal with those stupid, two front wheel motorcycles, anyways? Looks like someone put a Segway in place of a motorcycles front wheel...
Yeah, they look weird. Here is an article about them http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...l-mp3-scooter/
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Old 05-29-07, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by botto
it's time for phil to retire. seriously.
Why? Just because of this and that he in the weekend coverage said Eddy won the 69 Giro (which would have brought his total to 6 Giro wins)?
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Old 05-29-07, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
Why? Just because of this and that he in the weekend coverage said Eddy won the 69 Giro (which would have brought his total to 6 Giro wins)?
because of many things.
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Old 05-29-07, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bdcheung
I watched it live, and can tell you it definitely looked like Garzelli got a pull from the moto. Simoni ought to be pissed.
He was pissed, he complained to the officials immediately after the finish and was seen yelling at the motorcycle riders.
However, this is a clear case of too much crying wolf for Simoni, he always whines when he loses, so the officials just ignore him now.
 

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