BlackTie

did you win a cat5 race before upgrading to cat4? or did you just move up by finishing 10 races?

I'm asking this because I have a good chance of winning at cat5 race soon, and I 'm wondering how I'd do in a cat4 race compared to a person who just moved up without winning.

WCroadie

Neither, I did 7 cat5 races finishing most in the top 10. I got 2nd in the last cat5 I did and was able to upgrade on the spot cause a USCF official was at the race. I spoke to him the week before the race about moving up so I could race in the 4's later that day, I gave him all my races and where I placed. He said to see him after the race and he will let me know. He let me move up.

The best rider doesn't always win, there's more to it then being the fastest/strongest. The first few cat 4 races I did I was a bit intimidated. The fields were huge and there were a lot of strong riders. After a couple I felt like I belonged there and the last couple races I have been finishing in the top 10 or 20.

The big differences I noticed after moving up beside the field being way bigger are you have to hold your position better, 1 mistake and you shoot right to the back. The pace is faster, the riders are stronger and there are crashes in every race so pay attention. If you think you can handle it move up. I didn't care about winning, I just wanted to become a better racer. You only get better by racing against better riders.

Snuffleupagus

It'd be nice to win one. I did, and I haven't pulled off another win since Lots of top 5s/10s...but no wins yet in the 4s.

It's a confidence booster, because if you can win in the 5s, you can win in the 4s...and by extension you can win in the 3s. Or so I'm told

jfmckenna

I never raced in cat 5 but I would guess that a strong cat 5 who is winning and or getting a lot of top 10 finishes would be very competitive in the cat 4's, in fact probably getting top 10's in cat 4 as well. So you probably would want to get a few podium finishes before moving up. On the other hand there is nothing wrong with catting up after 10 races since they are really there just to get your mass start experiences.

MDcatV

I dont think i even had a top 10 as a cat 5, but as a 4 I was regularly on the podium and won a race at an NRC event. Now, as a 3 who does lots of 30+ against big boys, I've had a few top 10s, but havent been able to train and race consistently this year due to outside obligations.

Summary - do 10 races and upgrade to cat 4 to learn how to race and get results.

nitropowered

I got second in a 5 race.

I quickly upgraded when I got to 10 races. Not that being a 4 changes anything race wise since most races are 4/5, being a 4 lets you upgrade to a 3.

I did win 2 races as a 4 before upgrading to a 3.

DrPete 

Also, if you're racing for championship/series points, Cat 5 races are a throwaway. For instance, a teammate of mine who many of us are trying to convince to cat up, won yesterday in the Cat 5 race at the MABRA crit championships. Only problem is there is no cat 5 championship jersey. Cat 5 races also don't count toward individual or team BAR points.

Not to take away from his win at all because it was hard-won to be sure, but according to MABRA it was a fun/exhibition race.

recneps

Winning is something a lot of racers do not learn before they move up. I had two 2nd places a 3rd and two 4ths in the 5s, I was planning on upgrading to a 3 this year but even if I get all the points I need, I probably wont unless things really start clicking.

Ive got kind of obsessed with being a 3 or a 2 and a couple of older guys, 1 that rode for the LA sherriffs and one that rode pro and cali set me straight. theyve told me you should only upgrade when you feel you can indefinatly win every race you enter in your category.

MDcatV

I disagree with that. I think once you've done your 10 races, you should get outta the Cat 5s. As far as feeling you can win every race in your category for other upgrades, that might be a good rule of thumb. But if you get your 20 pts. or whatever for a 4 to 3 upgrade, you've demonstrated ability to be consistently competitive and have most likely learned all you can at that level ... then upgrade.

recneps

They stress the fact that they moved up too quickly and when they got to the 3s and 2s they just didnt win . And couldnt win for a long time.

TheKillerPenguin

I think that's a good thing though, no? Forces you to bring yourself to the next level.

MDcatV

I'd wager that most Cat 3s have never won a race (I'm talkin' open Cat 4 or Cat 5 races here). I could be wrong, but it would be an interesting survey. Out of a field of X# of racers, only 1 can win. Winning is hard.

timmhaan

i never won a race, but i did get a few top 5's. i wanted to upgrade so i could ride with people who had a bit more experience\better bike handling.

recneps

And I would wager that most of those Cat 4s that never win a race never in a race in the 3s and will never win a race in the 2s. Even if they get the points or get 20 starts in a season to win in the upper cateegories you have to be able to win in the lower ones, If you have no interest in winning in the upper categories or doing well for the e matter upgrade as soon as you have the points.

recursive

You think that if 3s who aren't winning would be doing better in the 2s if only they sandbagged a little more?

Snuffleupagus

I don't know man...it seems like racing with guys who force you to work to beat them more would be more of a challenge. You're fast enough to do fine in the 3s - anyway, half of the races here are 3/4 races, so if you're going to be racing against the 3s, your placings might as well count towards a 3-2 upgrade instead of a 4-3 upgrade.

Chances are I'll get 2 more top tens before I get 12 more points, and I'm going to put in my 4-3 upgrade - even if it makes the rest of the season that much harder, I'd rather be working harder in the 3s, than winning in the 4s.

YMMV.

cmh

I don't think the move from Cat 5 to Cat 4 is or should be about winning a race. It is about getting experience riding in a pack. Cat up after you have 10 races.

If you want to win a race, stay in the Cat 4s until you do so.

WCroadie

Winning isn't everything, I'd rather be racing against better riders and pushing myself harder to become a better rider then staying in a category just to win. Don't get me wrong, I would have to be constantly placing well before I thought about upgrading but I wouldn't hold myself back just to win one. Winning would be nice though.

recneps

No, your right winning is not everything by any means but if you do want to win, youve got to learn how to won.

I know guys that had tons of trouble getting 4-3 points then after using some collegiate b races went to the 3s did consistent top 10s and got 4th in his first 1-2-3 race, he's been doing consistent top 10s in the 2s, so there are exceptions.

As Snuff I'm sure would tell you form isnt everything, hes got better form than probably most cat 4s in the state. All good coachs and good faster guys will tell you, to sandbag, other wise your going to get stomped in the category you upgrade too.

Sorry I kind of got away from the 4-5 upgrade and didnt totally read the OP, but for the 4-5 upgrade just get it after 10 starts.

zimbo

I think you're right about Snuff. In fact, I think the 3s will be more conducive to his style of racing (i.e. works his ass off, very active, strong FTP and VO2Max, etc) than the 4s where it's pretty hard to break away.

As for sandbagging... I was talking to my coach the other day and I said "I'm worried that at some point I will rise to the level of my incompetence and I guess I'd rather sandbag than have that happen." His response was something along the lines of "Maybe so, but I really think you owe it to yourself to see how high you can go." He has a point. I think becoming a Cat2, for example, would be a pretty significant life accomplishment. I'm obviously never going to turn pro and the amount of money one gets for winning Cat 4 events doesn't even come close to justifying participation.

I will say, though, that the thrill of winning a road race is pretty damn sweet. If you have the means I highly recommend it.

--Steve

Lithuania

just because you are winning in the 5s it doesnt mean you are learning anything. there is so much confusion in the packs in cat 5 races that winning doesnt always mean more then just being more fit or lucky. You can win a lot in the 5s without learning how to really win a race. you may just be learning you are a lot stronger then the other people in your races.

winning in the 4s can be very different. I dont see any reason to stay in the 5s longer then 10 races unless you are having a very tough time just finishing those races.

grebletie

Do Collegiate B races count towards a 3s upgrade? As far as I understood, they didn't.

If they do ...

recneps

Yes, as long as they meet the qualifications, field size and I think length they count, or at least plenty of people I know have been using them as their upgrade points.

But honestly I could tell usa cycling that I won 4 races in a row in california and wanted to be upgraded, I would probably get the upgrade.

Lithuania

i hope the day i start entering races because of prize money never happens.

waterrockets 

I also never raced my 10 full races. I think I had 6 or 7, all but one were top 5 (that first one was me towing the pack around for two laps ). I didn't win any Cat 5 races, but I won my 10th race as a Cat 4 and upgraded again.

I really just wanted to get out of 5s and into 4s. Same thing with 4s -- I just wanted to advance as quickly as possible until I couldn't advance any more. Winning the Cat 4 race was an unexpected bonus. I didn't think I had advanced beyond a couple of the sandbaggers in there.