Meaning of a flattened power curve?
#1
Geosynchronous Falconeer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,312
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Meaning of a flattened power curve?
Rather than try to explain what I'm talking about, I'll just attach an image. They're worth 1000 words you know. I really have to hand it to myself for my mspaint skills.
It's possible that what I think is normal really isn't, but I've seen that general shape on graphs in a few places.
So my question, is what does my graph indicate? My first guess is a lack of muscular strength. Do I need to hit some weights?
It's possible that what I think is normal really isn't, but I've seen that general shape on graphs in a few places.
So my question, is what does my graph indicate? My first guess is a lack of muscular strength. Do I need to hit some weights?
__________________
Bring the pain.
Bring the pain.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
That's a good question. I'm not sure, but I'd like to know the answer since I see similar things in my data. You might try posting on the wattage forum. I've posted there before and got answers from Andy Coggan.
#3
Edificating
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland
Posts: 2,452
Bikes: Spooky + Sachs
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
where is said wattage forum?
__________________
Cat 3 // Dylan M Howell
Cat 3 // Dylan M Howell
#4
Geosynchronous Falconeer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,312
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by dmotoguy
where is said wattage forum?
__________________
Bring the pain.
Bring the pain.
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: In the middle of horse country, in The Garden State
Posts: 3,159
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by recursive
I think it's this one: https://groups.google.com/group/wattage?hl=en
that's the one. A lot of power guru's hang out there.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Not sure what the source of your "normal" graph is. I'm guessing this would be the graph of someone whose watts/kg were on the same rung/level across the board of Allen/Coggan's model (a solid all-around rider).
It's hard to say by looking at the the recursive curve (red line) what your strengths/weaknesses are wt. data points along the curve. What is your power at 5s and 1/5/20/60 min power and what is your weight?
What kind of racing suit your abilities? Are you a field sprinter? Climber? Someone who goes with the decisive attack on 3-5 minute hill and then drives the break? If you aren't doing crits and lots of field sprinting I'm not sure that working on the 5-30 seconds part of your curve will pay off in the end (if that is your weakness).
Last, for what it's worth the pundits on the power forum are convinced that the only way to get stronger in any cycling discipline is to focus on on-bike activities only. So if you are doing lots of crtis and RRs w field sprints and your 5 second power is the issue then you've got to incorporate more sprint work into your routine, rather than go to the gymn (in their opinion).
gene r
It's hard to say by looking at the the recursive curve (red line) what your strengths/weaknesses are wt. data points along the curve. What is your power at 5s and 1/5/20/60 min power and what is your weight?
What kind of racing suit your abilities? Are you a field sprinter? Climber? Someone who goes with the decisive attack on 3-5 minute hill and then drives the break? If you aren't doing crits and lots of field sprinting I'm not sure that working on the 5-30 seconds part of your curve will pay off in the end (if that is your weakness).
Last, for what it's worth the pundits on the power forum are convinced that the only way to get stronger in any cycling discipline is to focus on on-bike activities only. So if you are doing lots of crtis and RRs w field sprints and your 5 second power is the issue then you've got to incorporate more sprint work into your routine, rather than go to the gymn (in their opinion).
gene r
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Here's a link to the Cycling Peaks page that discussses assessing what kind of rider you are and your strengths/weaknesses based on your power profile.
https://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/...11/profile.asp
I know that I'm a classic /\ pattern. I can outsprint the average climber, and outclimb the average sprinter. My real strength is my AWC and 5 min power so I train my weaknesses and look for races or employ tactics that play to my strengths.
FWIW I spent a lot of this yr upping my FTP and its helped me arrive at decisive climbs in a fresher state, but in our area if your not pushing an FTP 4.3+ watts/kg your not a contender in hilly RRs, and that's in the Masters Cat 4 races!
gene r
https://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/...11/profile.asp
I know that I'm a classic /\ pattern. I can outsprint the average climber, and outclimb the average sprinter. My real strength is my AWC and 5 min power so I train my weaknesses and look for races or employ tactics that play to my strengths.
FWIW I spent a lot of this yr upping my FTP and its helped me arrive at decisive climbs in a fresher state, but in our area if your not pushing an FTP 4.3+ watts/kg your not a contender in hilly RRs, and that's in the Masters Cat 4 races!
gene r
#8
Carpe Diem
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
Posts: 13,149
Bikes: 2007 CAAD9; 2014 CAADX; PedalForce CG1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Recursive,
Where did you get the "normal" curve from? I don't think one can normalize mean-max power curves, as every individual is different. Here's mine:
And here's my power profile:
Where did you get the "normal" curve from? I don't think one can normalize mean-max power curves, as every individual is different. Here's mine:
And here's my power profile:
__________________
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
#9
NorCal Climbing Freak
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 872
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by bdcheung
Recursive,
Where did you get the "normal" curve from? I don't think one can normalize mean-max power curves, as every individual is different. Here's mine:
And here's my power profile:
Where did you get the "normal" curve from? I don't think one can normalize mean-max power curves, as every individual is different. Here's mine:
And here's my power profile:
#10
wavylines
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Bull City
Posts: 541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by recursive
It's possible that what I think is normal really isn't
My first guess is a lack of muscular strength.
#11
Geosynchronous Falconeer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 6,312
Bikes: 2006 Raleigh Rush Hour, Campy Habanero Team Ti, Soma Double Cross
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by LT Intolerant
Not sure what the source of your "normal" graph is. I'm guessing this would be the graph of someone whose watts/kg were on the same rung/level across the board of Allen/Coggan's model (a solid all-around rider).
It's hard to say by looking at the the recursive curve (red line) what your strengths/weaknesses are wt. data points along the curve. What is your power at 5s and 1/5/20/60 min power and what is your weight?
What kind of racing suit your abilities? Are you a field sprinter? Climber? Someone who goes with the decisive attack on 3-5 minute hill and then drives the break? If you aren't doing crits and lots of field sprinting I'm not sure that working on the 5-30 seconds part of your curve will pay off in the end (if that is your weakness).
Last, for what it's worth the pundits on the power forum are convinced that the only way to get stronger in any cycling discipline is to focus on on-bike activities only. So if you are doing lots of crtis and RRs w field sprints and your 5 second power is the issue then you've got to incorporate more sprint work into your routine, rather than go to the gymn (in their opinion).
gene r
It's hard to say by looking at the the recursive curve (red line) what your strengths/weaknesses are wt. data points along the curve. What is your power at 5s and 1/5/20/60 min power and what is your weight?
What kind of racing suit your abilities? Are you a field sprinter? Climber? Someone who goes with the decisive attack on 3-5 minute hill and then drives the break? If you aren't doing crits and lots of field sprinting I'm not sure that working on the 5-30 seconds part of your curve will pay off in the end (if that is your weakness).
Last, for what it's worth the pundits on the power forum are convinced that the only way to get stronger in any cycling discipline is to focus on on-bike activities only. So if you are doing lots of crtis and RRs w field sprints and your 5 second power is the issue then you've got to incorporate more sprint work into your routine, rather than go to the gymn (in their opinion).
gene r
Perhaps I need to do some more formal measurements before really taking action. This was something that I just noticed looking at the profiles for my last few races. Actually, it looks not entirely unlike bdc's. Except lower on that left side. Maybe lower everywhere.
__________________
Bring the pain.
Bring the pain.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by recursive
I don't have any numbers handy right now, but crits are actually usually my strong point. I can't TT, but I can sprint, and almost always take at least a few places before the line.
Perhaps I need to do some more formal measurements before really taking action. This was something that I just noticed looking at the profiles for my last few races. Actually, it looks not entirely unlike bdc's. Except lower on that left side. Maybe lower everywhere.
Perhaps I need to do some more formal measurements before really taking action. This was something that I just noticed looking at the profiles for my last few races. Actually, it looks not entirely unlike bdc's. Except lower on that left side. Maybe lower everywhere.
Get in a good warm up first - then do (1) 5 minute blast at max HR…. Cruise for 10 minutes & then do (4) 1 minute efforts at the max you can do, recovering for 1minute between each. Make sure that each effort is a HARD,HARD JUMP from 24mph .Then 5minutes easy. Then do (5) 30 second efforts at max pace(sprint!) recovering for 1minute between each. Then do 10 minutes easy and then do (3) 2 minute efforts at max pace with 1minute recovery. Then cool-down.
gene r
#13
Senior Member
Originally Posted by LT Intolerant
If the extreme left side of your curve is flat in the 1-3 seconds range and you're getting good results in field sprints I wouldn't worry too much (about the flattening of the curve). If however your curve was flat for 20-30 seconds, I'd say add a sprint routine to your normal training week. Here's a workout one coach prescribed that will increase your attack speed and sprint...
Get in a good warm up first - then do (1) 5 minute blast at max HR…. Cruise for 10 minutes & then do (4) 1 minute efforts at the max you can do, recovering for 1minute between each. Make sure that each effort is a HARD,HARD JUMP from 24mph .Then 5minutes easy. Then do (5) 30 second efforts at max pace(sprint!) recovering for 1minute between each. Then do 10 minutes easy and then do (3) 2 minute efforts at max pace with 1minute recovery. Then cool-down.
gene r
Get in a good warm up first - then do (1) 5 minute blast at max HR…. Cruise for 10 minutes & then do (4) 1 minute efforts at the max you can do, recovering for 1minute between each. Make sure that each effort is a HARD,HARD JUMP from 24mph .Then 5minutes easy. Then do (5) 30 second efforts at max pace(sprint!) recovering for 1minute between each. Then do 10 minutes easy and then do (3) 2 minute efforts at max pace with 1minute recovery. Then cool-down.
gene r
#14
Carpe Diem
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
Posts: 13,149
Bikes: 2007 CAAD9; 2014 CAADX; PedalForce CG1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
Is that for real? A 5-minute interval at max-HR the entire time? Or hit max-HR by the end of it?
__________________
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 525
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
Is that for real? A 5-minute interval at max-HR the entire time? Or hit max-HR by the end of it?
gene r
#16
Blast from the Past
I think what it means in simple terms is that you are slow.
#17
Isaias
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 5,182
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by recursive
So my question, is what does my graph indicate?
IMHO, all it indicates is that you have a lack of data points in the flat area of your graph. The trend indicates you have the potential to hold a tangent with the "normal" curve, except you haven't created any points there, yet.
#18
Carpe Diem
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: MABRA
Posts: 13,149
Bikes: 2007 CAAD9; 2014 CAADX; PedalForce CG1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by NoRacer
IMHO, all it indicates is that you have a lack of data points in the flat area of your graph. The trend indicates you have the potential to hold a tangent with the "normal" curve, except you haven't created any points there, yet.
__________________
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
"When you are chewing the bars at the business end of a 90 mile road race you really dont care what gear you have hanging from your bike so long as it works."
ΛΧΑ ΔΞ179 - 15% off your first Hammer Nutrition order!
#19
Isaias
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Essex, MD
Posts: 5,182
Bikes: Ridley X-Fire (carbon, white)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bdcheung
The "normal" curve really isn't normal.
The following is what mine currently looks like:
#20
Senior Member
Originally Posted by NoRacer
I believe his drawing to be conceptual, not accurate.
The following is what mine currently looks like:
The following is what mine currently looks like: