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Old 07-05-07, 04:50 PM   #1
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TDF Strategy: Question

Caisse d'Epargne says they're going with two leaders (just as T-Mobile used to do with Ullrich toward the end), Pereiro and Valverde at this year's TDF. I think it's a huge mistake as you lose chances to push one guy into the lead since you fear using up the other guy and then having the first falter, but I don't have evidence of this other than what I observed from t-mobile. Does anyone know of any teams that won the TDF doing this?
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Old 07-05-07, 04:53 PM   #2
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1986 - LeMond, Hinault.

Not the TdF, but 2005 and 2007 Tour of Georgia - Discovery cashed in with their alternate leader both times.

That said, I don't think it's a good strategy.

Question - I am surprised either of those guys are making it to the starting line this year. What happened?
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Old 07-05-07, 04:57 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by USAZorro
1986 - LeMond, Hinault.

Not the TdF, but 2005 and 2007 Tour of Georgia - Discovery cashed in with their alternate leader both times.

That said, I don't think it's a good strategy.

Question - I am surprised either of those guys are making it to the starting line this year. What happened?
1986 doesn't fit. Hinault said he'd ride 100% for Lemond. The team went in with one leader: Lemond. Sure, Hinault tried to take it from him but their strategy was to have Lemond win.
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Old 07-05-07, 05:01 PM   #4
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Banesto 1991

Telekom 1996

Telekom 1997

Super U 1989 (they should have won )

Last edited by ed073; 07-05-07 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 07-05-07, 05:08 PM   #5
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There have been several winners that were not the designated GC man, nor the "co-captain". So it seems a smart strategy might be to keep your #2 man out of the lime light.

Riis - Ullrich
Delgado - Indurain

And in the Giro
Simoni - Cunego
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Old 07-05-07, 05:08 PM   #6
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Might as well support two riders for as long as you can. Then as soon as one starts falling off. focus all efforts toward one rider.
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Old 07-06-07, 01:25 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ed073
Banesto 1991

Telekom 1996

Telekom 1997

Super U 1989 (they should have won )
bingo, or should that be bongo?

Last edited by botto; 07-06-07 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 07-06-07, 02:36 AM   #8
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I'd say Caisse d'Epargne and Pereiro both know he doesn't really have a chance of repeating last year's performance. It's just PR to brag about how strong their team is. If Valverde does blow up, I could see them riding for Karpets before Pereiro.
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Old 07-06-07, 03:48 AM   #9
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The only teams that ever put everything into one basket at the TDF, are when a squad has one of the "patrons" of the sport.

Hinault, Armstrong, etc...

Otherwise, there is plan A, B, C, D and Z.
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Old 07-06-07, 06:32 AM   #10
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more to the point, what were Milram gonna do with Petacchi and Zabel in the same team?

Not that it matters now that Petacchi's gone, but still... Zabel as Ale-jet's leadout man?
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Old 07-06-07, 06:36 AM   #11
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more to the point, what were Milram gonna do with Petacchi and Zabel in the same team?

Not that it matters now that Petacchi's gone, but still... Zabel as Ale-jet's leadout man?
iirc zabel has been quoted as saying that he's contractually obliged to help petacchi.
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Old 07-06-07, 06:40 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ed073
Banesto 1991

Telekom 1996

Telekom 1997


Super U 1989 (they should have won )
Système U!

<ack>
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Old 07-06-07, 06:47 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Super Guanche
I'd say Caisse d'Epargne and Pereiro both know he doesn't really have a chance of repeating last year's performance. It's just PR to brag about how strong their team is. If Valverde does blow up, I could see them riding for Karpets before Pereiro.
I think you're right. But, none of the other teams are going to let Pereiro get away again. He'll be a marked man, and Caisse d/Epargne can use that to their advantage. Any break he's in will be shut down. Takes pressure off Valverde, and the rest of the team.
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Old 07-06-07, 06:47 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by botto
iirc zabel has been quoted as saying that he's contractually obliged to help petacchi.
Is Petacchi back in the Tour?
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Old 07-06-07, 06:55 AM   #15
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Is Petacchi back in the Tour?
nope. the quote was from milano san remo (iirc).
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Old 07-06-07, 07:33 AM   #16
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nope. the quote was from milano san remo (iirc).
So now he's contractually obligated to hold the syringe and cottonball?
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Old 07-06-07, 08:57 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by donrhummy
Caisse d'Epargne says they're going with two leaders (just as T-Mobile used to do with Ullrich toward the end), Pereiro and Valverde at this year's TDF. I think it's a huge mistake as you lose chances to push one guy into the lead since you fear using up the other guy and then having the first falter, but I don't have evidence of this other than what I observed from t-mobile. Does anyone know of any teams that won the TDF doing this?
Pereiro is a team leader in name only. He was the beneficiary of some very bad tactics by other teams in the TDF last year, and is only being given an honorary nod as team leader in recognition of his 2nd or 1st or whatever it was. The most recent dual team leadership was probably Gerolsteiner with Leipheimer and Totschnig, who both finished top ten. The next year they announced a dual team leadership in the Tour, but Totschnig came into the Tour sick, so it never really worked out. Dual team leadership can be a very effective tactic if you have two riders who are a real threat. Teams are required to watch and follow both riders, which forces them to spread their resources thinner.

But Pereiro will be riding for Valverde. No Doubt.
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Old 07-06-07, 09:41 AM   #18
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I think it's better to have one GC man so the team all works together for one rider instead of splitting the team as happened in '86 with Hinault/Lemond. Having Ullrich, Kloden, and Vinokourov on the same team didn't help them; they all sat around waiting for each other to go.

Not having a definite GC rider didn't help Disco last year; when nobody seemed to do well in the Pyrenees the team just drifted.
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Old 07-06-07, 09:43 AM   #19
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Not having a definite GC rider didn't help Disco last year
More like not having a GC rider didn't help Disco last year
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Old 07-06-07, 09:45 AM   #20
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It's a strategy that can work, or fail terribly. It's really about how the riders respond to the multi-leader philosophy, and how well the DS can keep everyone on the same page.

... Brad
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Old 07-06-07, 10:32 AM   #21
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The other weird thing is Kloden actually should be the favorite to win the whole thing. he's the only one to place on the podium twice (2nd and third) and he even placed 2nd when all the drug users were still there. But for some reason he doesn't seem to want to be a leader. When he went to Astana, everyone originally thought it was for more money but it turns out he was offered the same money AND T-Mobile was also offering to make him the outright team leader. So the question is, did he leave t-mobile because he was afraid of having the responsibility of being the leader or because of their new anti-doping plan?
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Old 07-06-07, 10:36 AM   #22
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The other weird thing is Kloden actually should be the favorite to win the whole thing. he's the only one to place on the podium twice (2nd and third) and he even placed 2nd when all the drug users were still there. But for some reason he doesn't seem to want to be a leader. When he went to Astana, everyone originally thought it was for more money but it turns out he was offered the same money AND T-Mobile was also offering to make him the outright team leader. So the question is, did he leave t-mobile because he was afraid of having the responsibility of being the leader or because of their new anti-doping plan?
yes.
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Old 07-06-07, 11:09 AM   #23
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T-Mobile was more serious about cracking down on doping than Astana (my view). Also, Astana exists primarily because Vinokourov had connections with the wealthy Khazak who is now their sponsor - so him being the team leader is rather a given. I'd be completely talking out my butt to say this had anything to do with Kloden's riding with Astana (it could just have been that he and Godefroot are pals), but for those of us who aren't insiders, it does cause some pondering.
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Old 07-07-07, 01:38 AM   #24
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Quote:
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Système U!

<ack>

1988 was the final season they were known as Systeme U. Super U for 89, Castorama from 1990 to 1995
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Old 07-07-07, 08:40 AM   #25
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1988 was the final season they were known as Systeme U. Super U for 89, Castorama from 1990 to 1995
Hmm. I missed the Super U I guess.

I had a Systeme U wool and satin L/S jersey/jacket thing. Those were the days, but I was only able to wear that thing like twice in Colorado -- it was too warm.
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