Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > "The 33"-Road Bike Racing
Reload this Page >

Flandis innocent or guilty, which is better for pro cycling?

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.
View Poll Results: Flandis guilty or not guilty better for pro cycling?
Guilty is better
8
21.62%
Not guilty is better
29
78.38%
Voters: 37. You may not vote on this poll

Flandis innocent or guilty, which is better for pro cycling?

Old 07-10-07, 10:22 PM
  #1  
NomadVW 
部門ニ/自転車オタク
Thread Starter
 
NomadVW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Sterling, VA
Posts: 3,173

Bikes: 2008 Blue T16, 2009 Blue RC8, 2012 Blue Norcross CX, 2016 Blue Axino SL, 2016 Scott Scale, Fixie, Fetish Cycles Road Bike (on the trainer)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Flandis innocent or guilty, which is better for pro cycling?

I read an article that suggested his innocence was better for cycling in the long run. We've heard all the "why he's guilty" or "why he's innocent" reasons/possibilities. Inevitably, the "guilty" folks won't convince the "not guilty" folks or vice versa. So my question is - REGARDLESS of whether or not you think he did or didn't - which is better for pro cycling (or maybe sports) in the long run?

My take at this point is that a "not guilty" verdict is better. We've heard the flaws in the French labs (which even the "guilty" folks agree exist), and the "not guilty" verdict to Flandis would be a "guilty" verdict to a flawed doping control system that will be forced to see examination beyond a footnote in history. Flandis goes guilty, and the status quo stays the same. It's a vindication of the "working system" - which if it was really working we'd not have cyclists "coming clean" in droves this year.

Thoughts? Yeah... it's a doping question but I got to thinking about it while reading the article.
__________________
Envision, Energize, Enable
NomadVW is offline  
Old 07-10-07, 10:36 PM
  #2  
roadgator
raodmaster shaman
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: G-ville
Posts: 1,431
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
not guilty shows how messed up the anti-doping system is. it will bring as much pressure on those guys as the press has put on the riders. until the anti-dopers clean up their act, why would anyone take them seriously?
roadgator is offline  
Old 07-10-07, 10:48 PM
  #3  
Vinokurtov
Now Racer Ex
 
Vinokurtov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,709
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I just hope, whatever it is, that they verdict is actually right.
Vinokurtov is offline  
Old 07-10-07, 11:04 PM
  #4  
Ryanf
Banned.
 
Ryanf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Jan Ullrich Is der Kaiser.
Posts: 1,322

Bikes: giant tcr c1 and giant ocr limited

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I vote guilty so floyd will be gone.
Ryanf is offline  
Old 07-11-07, 02:26 AM
  #5  
botto 
.
 
botto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 40,368
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
doesn't matter, either way.
botto is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 10:40 AM
  #6  
wvxc
Montani Semper Liberi
 
wvxc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Southern WV
Posts: 248

Bikes: Specialized Hardrock

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ryanf
I vote guilty so floyd will be gone.

Why? So Ulrich will have a riding partner?
wvxc is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 10:46 AM
  #7  
Cypress
Giving you the business.
 
Cypress's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Salem, Oregon
Posts: 4,462

Bikes: Trek because free

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Guilty and booted for it.

It's way easier to explain that to people rather than "not guilty because of blah blah blah, but he appealed and now blah blah blah circumstantial blah blah blah incorrect procedure blah blah blah we'll never know"
Cypress is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 11:49 AM
  #8  
Greg180
Realist
 
Greg180's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,083

Bikes: Roubaix, Tarmac, Fixed Gear

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Don't care either way as long as it is a truthful verdict.

But I fear that Botto is right. If he is guilty they will sling mud at WADA and everyone else. If he is innocent everyone will claim that with the right defense team you can beat anything...Just ask OJ.

Floyd is F**ck** but pro cycling doesn't have to be.
Greg180 is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 12:35 PM
  #9  
JoAnnL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 60
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Just read his book and suggest you all do the same before drawing conclusions. I also think Congress should do a thorough investigation of the UASDA before giving them anymore of our tax payer dollars. And for the WADA French labs....they are a complete disgrace to the sport.
JoAnnL is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 12:41 PM
  #10  
marin1
Double Prick
 
marin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Canadian version of Texas
Posts: 561

Bikes: Cervelo Carbon Soloist, Cervelo Aluminum Soloist, Cannondale cyclecross

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Ryanf
I vote guilty so floyd will be gone.
Floyd is gone.
marin1 is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 12:56 PM
  #11  
Enthalpic
Killing Rabbits
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 139 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by JoAnnL
Just read his book and suggest you all do the same before drawing conclusions. I also think Congress should do a thorough investigation of the UASDA before giving them anymore of our tax payer dollars. And for the WADA French labs....they are a complete disgrace to the sport.
Enthalpic is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 02:07 PM
  #12  
Jinker
Senior Member
 
Jinker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ottawa,ON
Posts: 642

Bikes: Univega Via Montega, Nashbar Aluminum frame/105 roadbike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The anti doping system is both pooched *and* fighting a losing battle. Just as it's not reasonable to expect pro athletes to be competitive without doping in the multi-million dollar a year sports, it's not reasonable to expect the anti-doping authorities to be able to catch dopers with any regularity.

Operation Puerto has shown that habitual dopers can pass the current state of the art doping tests with flying colours. The number of elite cyclists implicated in doping (Landis or no) shows that it's pervasive. If it's not only possible, but reasonably certain that you can bypass anti doping tests, and get a real performance benefit on the order of at least a few percentage points, saying 'no' to doping is essentially saying 'no' to being competitive at the very top level.

Doping is also pervasive in many other professional sports where there's enough money involved.

Could you build a professional sport without doping? I'm not sure. You'd have to eliminate the financial incentive of cheating. Unlink riders from sponsor's budgets. Allow sponsors to support the sport, without giving them a team of their own. Give riders access to the same medical and training resources across the board and make it much more open. You'd have to deny riders the financial incentives to cheat. IE: Salary them, and provide them a pension at the end of their career? If you want to give them monetary rewards, give it to them when they retire so that winnings can't be spent on doping.

Does that sound realistic to me? Not in the slightest.

So long as teams have private retreats in Spain for training in the off season, there will be the motivation and opportunity to pursue a doping regimen.

Does the Floyd verdict affect any of this? Not in the slightest. People across the board will feel that the current anti-doping routine is flawed. Some will feel that it's over-zealous and unfair. They're right. Some will feel it's not rigorous enough to ensure a clean field. They're right too.

With hit-and-miss testing, you're left with two options:

The system unfairly demonizes and severely punishes the few riders who get caught, when they're not doing anything all that outrageous in the context of the sport overall, to 'make an example of them' because most don't get caught. (Imagine locking up people for huge periods of time on a no-tolerance system for J-walking)

Or

Riders can afford to get caught every now and then, and continue to dope, with the occasional slap on the wrist not being an effective deterrent. (Think speeding tickets)
Jinker is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 02:30 PM
  #13  
lotek 
Senior Member
 
lotek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: n.w. superdrome
Posts: 17,711

Bikes: 1 trek, serotta, rih, de Reus, Pogliaghi and finally a Zieleman! and got a DeRosa

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
very nice analysis.

Botto: Correct. won't make a bit of difference.
__________________
Sono pił lento di quel che sembra.
Odio la gente, tutti.


Want to upgrade your membership? Click Here.
lotek is offline  
Old 07-13-07, 04:10 PM
  #14  
Trevor98
Senior Member
 
Trevor98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Virginia Beach
Posts: 1,038
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Pro Cycling has already lost. It has mishandled this case from the start and cannot be redeemed by any verdict in the Landis case. The WADA system can redeem themselves slightly by ruling that they too must abide by the rules and that guilt is not a reason to cheat the process. Right now I am more concerned with the failings of USADA, the WADA certified LNDD lab, and the process for collecting samples for athletes in France than I am about which riders dope the most.

These abuses are happening in our name, not as cyclists but as taxpayers. We pay for USADA and the circus they called a hearing- how sad is that? The bigger picture here is public (however limited) acceptance of that "hearing" as justice and the fact that dopers should be emboldened by that farce of a case. A not-guilty verdict would force the system to clean itself up just as the LAPD lab was forced to clean itself up after the OJ verdict. The integrity of the testers should not be the overriding issue in such a case.

Unfortunately, if history is a precedent then USADA will rule against the athlete regardless of the evidence or the strength of the prosecution. If this happens I doubt too much will change in the WADA system.

As soon as the WADA system stood behind their admitted mistakes this case became larger than cycling. As soon as the UCI, ASO, and others began foaming at the mouth about the positive they showed that they care more about busting riders more than administering a just anti-doping system.
Trevor98 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.